Transcript: Deedy (Debarghya Das) - Indian Startups, AI & Search

Host: Hey, DD, welcome to the show. Um, thanks for joining. Absolutely pleasure to be here, Nattraj. Um, so I found you via Twitter, um, where I spend insane amounts of time, uh, like everybody else.

Um, but you're one of the few people I feel like the three things that intersect, uh, because if I look at my followers, most of them are non-Indians or non-Indian origin.

Um, and a lot of Indian, Indian origin are like people who work in tech, um, are not that active. Uh, if they're active, they don't have huge followings. Uh, and they're not strategic about, and they don't have interesting opinions.

Uh, and the ones who have interesting opinions are not actively on Twitter and writing about it. Uh, so I think you sort of like intersect all these three things.

You work in tech, um, you worked in Google, um, now you're working in clean, um, and you write interesting threads.

And I think one of the interesting parts and with this podcast also we try to do something is, uh, because of being Indian and because of being in venture, I see both US and Indian side of things.

And I think you, your Twitter content is also somewhat mixed, uh, taking, writing about the Indian content and US content as well.

Uh, so this, this is why I think you seemed interesting to me and I wanted to have a conversation with you, uh, on the podcast.

Uh, but before getting into all that, um, can you just introduce yourself and, you know, what was your education and career till now? Absolutely. Thanks, Nattraj. No, I, I appreciate that very much.

I also do spend a little bit of time on Twitter these days. Um, let me introduce myself first. So my name is Dibargo. I, I go by DD usually. You can find me on Twitter at Dibargo_ Das.

And uh, and in terms of my professional experience, you know, I let me start before that. Yeah, I grew up a little bit mixed. Um, I was born in India, but I was, I spent seven years in the Bay Area when I was a child when my family was here.

And I moved back in the fifth grade. After, and I spent middle school and high school in Calcutta, and then I came back to America for college.

Um, I went, I went to Cornell up in Ithica and did my bachelors and masters in computer science, after which I spent a year at Facebook. Uh, didn't really like it, moved to Google and worked on Google search for four years across uh New York.

I spent some time in Israel and then Bangalore. And after my uh one and a half year stint in Bangalore, I decided to take the plunge and I joined Gleen as one of the founding members.

And Gleen is now uh Unicorn startup, SAS company that sells Enterprise Search tools. So, that's, that's my background. So, I thought um one of the topics I wanted to talk to you about uh was uh regarding Indian startups.

I think you wrote uh a bunch of uh content around, you know, which companies are succeeding and which companies are not. Uh, so just give me an overview of what you think is happening right now in the unicorn class, uh, especially on Indian startups.

Yeah, so let me, let me start by saying that, you know, when, when I moved to Bangalore, I was working at Google at the time and one of the big reasons, there were many reasons, but one of the big reasons I moved back was to learn more about the tech ecosystem.

And you moved from US to Bangalore. Correct. I was in New York prior to that and I moved from New York to Bangalore. Um, I knew it was going to be a temporary thing.

It was just testing the waters, but I did want to get a better feel for how tech works and and what's available in India now. Because I always hear so much hype about it. From the internet, you hear new startups are getting funded.

There's over 100 unicorns in India. There's so many stories of big acquisitions. Uh, Shark Tank is now, you know, a household name in in India. So, you know, to some extent startups and venture and entrepreneurship has really become mainstream.

And I wanted to see what the hype was all about. And when I was there, I learned a few interesting things and, and maybe this comes back to my Twitter opinion is I like to have a nuance take on things.

I don't want to have be for or against something, but I want to understand what it's all about. And when I looked into the top startup ecosystem in India, one thing I didn't find was there was no critique.

You know, everyone always writes positive news about Indian startups pretty much across the board. Um, maybe a little bit that has changed now. Uh, but that really irked me and that was kind of a negative signal.

Everything can't be good with any ecosystem, there's some good, some bad. And the more I dug into it, the more of the bad I would find.

I mean, most of the people writing these things are are VCs and they have they're incentivized to write good things. They're invested in these companies. Um, or people working at the startups who are also invested in this ecosystem.

So, the more I looked into it, I realized, look, there's a lot of good stuff happening in India. Like, look, it's a growing market. There is growing disposable income. Technology, it's a technology first market.

People are growing up with mobile phones in you know, volumes that we when I grew up in India was unprecedented when we were there. And that's great. I think there's a lot of potential there.

However, a lot of the companies that I saw in India were just not real businesses. I think that's the first thing that struck me. You know, you are building amazing products. A lot of the products work really well. They have many, many users.

They solve a big problem need quickly. One of the great examples is Dunzo.

You know, Dunzo is a company for those of who of those who don't know, Dunzo is a company where you can order anything from anywhere immediately, including a free text box of custom instructions of what you want this person to do, and it costs you 30 rupees on top of, you know, what you would normally pay, which is incredible.

But it's very evident that learning from some of these examples in America, some of these business models, I never saw them scaling.

So then the more I dug into it, you see there are some insidious loops where these CEOs of these startups would raise, generate a bunch of hype, build a great product, raise a bunch of money, hire a bunch of people.

And my core by question was, okay, well what's your exit plan here? Like these companies aren't going to make money. Um, they're never going to be profitable. You're you're talking about 80, 90% loss margins.

It's very hard to turn those kinds of businesses around in many of those cases.

And I realized that what was happening is either they were too attracted to valuation and just didn't understand what building a good business meant because they were blown away by all the hype.

Or they understood that at some point or they knew that going in and they decided to sell secondary.

So they were getting rich and building their own personal brand, and if the company didn't work, it was like, oh, the market's not ready, but I tried my best. Um, even though, you know, that's questionable.

So that's sort of a high level overview of what the good and the bad is.

And I think not every company is bad, but my opinion is a lot of I would say aside from less than 10 companies, most consumer oriented startups in India, I struggle to see a path to profitability for them from from an outsider looking in.

And one last point I'll add there is more of a subtle uh thing is the reason you can critique the Indian ecosystem, and this is great, um, in comparison to the US is the MCA, the Ministry of Corporate Affairs in India, for uh ask startups and even private companies to file financials every year.

So you can actually see how much money they're making, how much money they're losing, all of these details, which you can't really get visibility in America. Yeah, I I think I've invested both in US and Indian companies.

So, one of the things that's, I mean there are bad things in India as well, but in terms of like regulation and filing paperwork, which is just a lot more, which includes this particular uh feature, most of things are bugs, but there are some features in it, which is what you mentioned, uh where you can get every year, you give the valuation.

For example, if you invest in a US startup, you don't know what valuation it is running as an investor, unless you're like a lead investor who's on the board and, you know, you get the insider information, but rest of them don't know which valuation at this point, their internal valuation is.

Uh, for Indian startups, every year you get an updated valuation, so you know very quickly what the feedback is from the company. Um, but the point about incentives, right? Um, a lot of startup media are startups. So, your story is a startup.

Like, even though you can say tech crunch in the US criticizes some of the companies, uh, but mostly they, you know, they talk about funding news and uh there's some, you know, occasionally they come up with a critique of company or like they coverage, they do cover a critique made by a different publication.

Uh, but in India, your story or INC 42 and some other, you know, upcoming publications, they are pretty much startups themselves. They're like promising investors to attract attention. Um, so it's like that incentive is not there for them.

But there are other publications like I think there's one Morning context or something, which is a purely subscription based. Uh, they did some investigative or some criticism about startup models.

Um, they're purely subscription based, I think, so they don't often get uh, you know, referred by your story or, you know, ink 42, um, and that whole ecosystem, which I get.

And I think you're also right about um the secondary uh share sales aspect of it, which happened. I think in US also, right? For example, there was this company, which was hopping.

Um, at peak of, you know, pandemic, it was valued at 7 point something billion. Uh, the founder exited for $150 million. It is now valued again at I think $1.2 billion or something. So, I mean in in a sense, the founder did the right thing.

Like if you know the company's overvalued, like is it wrong that I am selling my stock, right, right? Uh, that that sort of applies uh in your in your public markets also, right? If I am holding a stock and I know that it's overvalued, what do I do?

I hold it or I sell it, right? So there is some interesting incentives. Uh, and also a lot of early employees like look at all these things as the same.

I think where the education really lacks is uh especially in Indian markets is uh a lot of people don't understand what is the incentive structure going in as an early employee or joining in as an engineer, like how uh simple or how easily the whole system can break down in six months.

Like that aspect I think is still pretty much unknown even though like the top level, the founder sector, people who are creating companies understand this incentive structure very well and, you know, that's what happened.

They raised at pretty high valuations, you know, in last two years. Uh even a starting pre-seed company with no theme, no product was raising at $10 million.

Uh, and that might be a little bit norm, normalized in the US from 7 to 10, but in India it's it's extremely high, especially if you see things like what's happening on Shark Tank India or something, right?

Um, like that's extremely high valuation for a pre-seed company with no product, uh just an idea.

But those things happened and, you know, we we now see that there no path into actually finding a product uh or product market fit or even surviving for next 18, 24 months. Um, and to your customer, I think consumer products, right?

I think there are very few categories large enough where consumer side of companies can actually work. And I think India is in a phase where the primary needs or like the absolute primary needs are winning. Like you take Swiggy for example, right?

Swiggy is crushing it. Um, and that's like the basic need. It serves a very basic need. Dunzo also in a lot of ways serves a very basic need. Uh, and then there's like gaming and gambling, which is working really well.

Um, and then I think there's a whole ethic gambit with Vedantu and Byju's and which which I think have lost the plot in terms of like what is the right scale and valuation.

I think there's a use case, there's a right product market fit, but again, they overvalue themselves, they overscale themselves because we've seen this in um public markets as well in the US, right?

Not all the SAS companies that are overvalued are bad companies or bad products. It's just that you can't value something that is making $1 billion in the 100 billion valuation. $1 billion is still a good business.

Why can't you have a company which is, you know, a $1 billion uh may revenue and valued at you know, four or five billion. That's a good business with 300 employees, right?

But when you change that to, you know, value at 100 billion, then your expectations of revenue are increasing and then, you know, you basically revert back to mean and that's what we are seeing, right?

Um, But what are the some, you know, consumer companies that uh that are not working well uh according to you? Uh, I mean, I think the numbers show it, but some of the things that you're on top of your head?

Well, I'm going to name names, but and I've heard contrasting stories of this, you know, I, I tweeted about this earlier and then a bunch of people got into my DMS about it.

The ones that aren't working well in India, um, I know cred right now, the financials don't look good. Um, I've heard that their future product forecast is great, but everyone says that. So, you know, time will tell.

You have companies like Byju's that are, you know, just spending through the roof and they're not able to retain customers.

So all of their like sales expense is gone to waste because you get you get to book revenue the first time and then the customers churn and that's not particularly going great. Uh, numbers aren't at the top of my head.

Um, in fact, I would say given the current state of affairs, of course, things change, startups grow, numbers don't always look good at the early stage.

But only like Zerodha, physics Wala, I think um Gamescraft and maybe a couple of gaming company, Team 11 are the only four that I know that are consumer and that are I think sufficiently profitable, which is, you know, that's I just made that up.

Like I feel like they're actually profitable. The ones that are not sufficiently profitable is like Nyka and Mama Earth are barely breaking even.

They're just running a big um I mean they're great companies, good products, but they're running just big Amazon uh consumerized DTC brands. The other ones, other than these examples, I struggle to name many that are on track.

You know, some at a scalar Academy is not a unicorn yet, but they seem on track to be profitable. Not many others are on a good financial track today. That may change, but not of not a lot of them are.

But I do want to address some of the other points that that you mentioned because you did mention a lot of them in response.

Um, I I often get a lot of critique when people say, hey, you know, this is the a very classic Indian retort is, why are you pointing out Indian problems? This happens in America, too.

And uh, to that it's my response is, yes, it does. there's enough coverage in America that I don't have to point them out.

Um, firstly, secondly, I do think that maybe I don't have conclusive evidence of this, but in America, I typically don't see as egregious of uh loss margins, for example.

Like even when Uber was making loss for the longest time and I think this quarter Q4, they're close to profit or almost profitable.

Airbnb was profitable, I think, for the first year since they were existed, but they were never really losing 90% of their the money. They were losing a bit. Hey, but you could see a path. Um, for a lot of the Indian companies, I don't see a path.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm I'm no investor. Um, at least not in these companies. So I I don't know. Uh, but I do want to say a couple of other things to your other points. You mentioned pre-seed and seed valuations being high.

Yeah, totally agree across the board, you know, in America and India. They're high. Nothing to be done about that. A lot of the times they fail.

Uh, in terms of consumer need, I think that point is interesting because you know, a lot of these companies have product market fit. That's not really the concern for for for me at least. When I was in India, Dunzo was amazing.

There's this company called Bounce Scooter where you'd rent a scooter. You know, amazing as a consumer, Swiggy, amazing, Zomato, amazing. None of these products were bad. They're great products.

The problems really were that India is a very price sensitive market. There's almost no brand um retention or brand uh loyalty unlike in America. And people will switch for like five rupees.

You know, if something is five rupees cheaper on the other app, I'm going to order on the other app. That's sort of the mindset. And so without that brand retention it becomes a bit of a fight to the bottom in terms of price.

And I think that's in the business angle, a lot of these companies struggle as a result of that because it's fair to say Swiggy is a great business and I don't remember Swiggy's internal financials, so it's this is not a dunk on them or anything.

But Swiggy can't charge 100 rupees per delivery tomorrow and get away with it. You know, they're going to lose market share if they start to do that.

So, they might be a fantastic product, but I don't know if that business is justified or how it will look in the future because of the price sensitivity. So, that's kind of my view on on on the Indian consumer companies.

Although I will say you look at SAS companies in India, there's not very many of them, but fantastic play. Um, you when you're a SAS company in India on the other hand, you can make use of the fact that talent is cheaper.

Even though it's rising, talent is still way cheaper than America. You can build great SAS tools and sell them in America and you can just undercut because your cost structures are so much better. Um, and many companies are already doing this.

Um, in in in various different ways. So yeah, I think uh there's a leverage uh I mean it's so it's sort of like the opposite of what happened with the uh ID sector, right?

Because the entire ID generation where Infosys, you know, Tata consultancy, all these companies that came up, uh they got projects from the developed nations from the US and the UK and they were able to execute them at a cheaper cost.

Now you sort of, but the profit is uh sort of shared with the US and UK companies and you are making margins, marginal profits.

But now if you are controlling the product completely and you are at the same cost, you basically shift the economics completely on your side and you can basically make, you know, uh get all the higher, basically you are the one who are who's capturing the value essentially.

Uh, so that's uh and we have seen such a success stories. I think Freshdesk was one. Um, what is the other company where the founder lives in a village or claims to be?

Yeah yeah Zoho is the other company, which is sort of like the Microsoft of everything, right? They offer pretty much everything and it's what it's I think they've never raised outside funding after a couple of rounds, I think.

I don't think they ever raised. Yeah, I think. I don't think they ever raised and a billion dollars revenue, I think. I'm not sure.

Yeah yeah I think they're at something, some I've heard the billion figure thrown around uh and they're now 20 year olds and I see them popping up in different companies for different use cases.

Like one is using it for, you know, um as a CRM tool, one is using for a different purpose, so they have a whole stack of tools. It's sort of like the whole theory. Like if you have a tool that is successful in the US, they have a version of it.

Like you take uh if you have loom that is successful in the US, they'll have a version of it. Uh and the US consumer can buy it, right? Uh you have treat Hunter in the US, like they have a version of it. Uh Zoho has a version of that.

Uh so you see any SAS, you know, micro niche product successful in the US, Zoho will come up with that product pretty soon.

Uh, so it looks like they will single-handedly take that leverage that is coming up uh by shifting the product control to India.

Um, So I mean you you mentioned Shark Tank, like uh my sense is that you're falling that like one of the interesting things in Shark Tank India versus Shark Tank US that I've noticed is Shark Tank US is pretty much small and medium enterprise.

Uh, this always uh like if a Silicon Valley style pitch comes up, like Mark Cuban will throw them out. Uh, you know, this kind of valuation doesn't work here.

One thing I was amazed to see in this season particularly is um it's much more closer to Indian startup ecosystem. Um, I have actually seen couple of these pitches before they were on Shark Tank.

Like flat heads uh was the shoe company which is similar to like a shoe company here. Um, there's another um Mind Peers was like a mindful company that came on recently which I've seen before.

Um, and the interesting thing is it's much more similar to a venture uh, you know, ecosystem than the SME market that we are seeing. Even though we see a lot of SME companies, but the language is pretty close to VC.

Like no one says hey we are doing a pre-seed on Shark Tank US, right? We are just asking for money and you know, this is a small and medium business. Uh, what are your thoughts about Shark Tank India?

Well, to be honest, my answer is going to be very disappointing because I don't watch enough. Uh, I get forwarded clips from time to time and then I see them.

And I know Ashnir Grover's iconic dogla fun clip, but no, I I do notice all I have noticed all of the things that you were saying though. Um, perhaps, like not to sound terrible about this, perhaps that's bad.

I I wonder if India does have enough of a burgeoning small and medium business market. Um, you know, I don't know.

Uh, maybe they're all family businesses, like they they're like that's most of them I know, but I do know that there aren't that many people in India starting non-tech businesses. Um, and that's that's kind of the only comment I had.

I know the Shark Tank India judges do face a lot of critique. A lot of people say, hey, you know, all of your companies are loss making.

But um, but no, I haven't the few things I've seen, I find it pretty nice and entertaining and yeah, I I have I have not much to add there. It's cool.

I'm very glad that, you know, the the terminology and just the fact that this is something that parents know about and everybody in India just knows about is exciting.

Um, and it's a big change from from like the K serials that people used to watch in the 90s, you know, so I I think I welcome the change but I have no real thoughts on it to be honest. Yeah.

Um, what I mean so you've followed you closely follow what's happening with Indian startups. Uh we sort of saw similar trends um in US startups at at least in a growth stage startup level, I think the public markets played out pretty well.

Like if all these companies, right?

Like all these consumer companies, if they were public, I would see like that that's what, you know, would happen with, you know, what we have seen with some of the high growth startups uh SAS startups that we have seen in public markets here would have happened.

So, what do you think is happening with in general like big tech and you know, I think there's there's sort of like this narrative that hey, you know, tech is down, this uh the the golden era of 2010 to 2020 is over.

Um, and you know, different uh thoughts floating around. So, because of all the layoffs that we are seeing and the valuations going down in both public and private markets. Uh I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on that.

Yeah, there's there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack there. I think let me start with um I think the layoffs let's go get too late. Let me start with what I think the future of tech is.

A lot of the the boom of technology that we saw before was sort of built on new devices and capturing user attention.

If you think about sort of the biggest innovations of tech from 2000 to 2020, fundamentally a lot of them were, okay, let's get mobile phones into everybody's hands cheaply.

Um, let's make laptops and hardware a lot cheaper and let's give them stuff to do.

So you have utilities that will either help you do everything, so search or maps or photos and what have you, cameras, or you have, you know, social media websites where you can be entertained and connect with your friends and so on.

So Instagram, Facebook, um, messaging for WhatsApp.

And it's come to a point where this is what I think, this is not really based off of too much like factual data, but we're coming to a point where we're A, the population is not going to keep increasing. Like that's probably something we all know now.

The population will not continuously increase and people's time spent on their phone will eventually cap out. Like the incremental gains are very limited. So Facebook is at 3 billion total monthly users across all of their apps.

Maybe that can increase a little bit more, but you know, we're quickly coming to a point where it's going to reach an absolute saturation point.

So then the question is if that is if we've peaked out on, you know, penetration, then the only lever that you can really dial is monetizing those users better. So, there will be a lot of work on that.

I still think we're very far from tech companies are very far from actually monetizing all of their users well. They're still using models like ads, which is in some sense a little bit low um revenue per user.

I feel like you can do a better job there. There's a lot of innovation to be had in monetization. But even all of those things combined, I'm not bearish, but I wonder where that new growth will come from.

So a lot of people talk about AI and this and that, but sure, you can make AI and sell AI to other companies, but in terms of big tech and really saying where does the next 100 billion dollars of revenue come from? I don't know.

Is it like a little bit can come from cloud? A little bit can come from get better monetization models, but will we ever see a 2000 to 2020 growth spurt again? I don't know. I don't I don't see how yet.

Um, so that's one thing, that's where I would come from first. And then all of that sort of then trickles down to, you know, what actually happened on the ground, which is, okay, we had the pandemic.

That was a last, maybe some would say the last final breath of, okay, now people are using their phones all the time because they're sitting at home and so you get this huge spike in all sorts of businesses like food delivery and YouTube and ads all go up.

But now that that's gone, what is what is the future? Revenue's declined for all of these companies. They definitely I a lot of people say they overhired. I disagree with that statement because I'm like they have always been hiring this way.

They've been hiring this way since 2010. Pretty much every big tech company has been growing. They didn't really overhire in the pandemic that much.

But finally, you know, as if the fat lady started singing, the tech profits tech revenue is no longer going up the same way it's been going up for 20 years. It was been 20%, 20%, 20% for almost every single company. Now it's not there anymore.

So they've had to lay off people and actually focus on being a good business because you can't print money forever. And do I think that will change? I I I don't really know where it will come from.

Um, but it'll be interesting to see how new technology actually manages to monetize users. I do see that when we grew up, we would think of tech as a nice to have. Like, okay, I'll spend 10 bucks on Netflix, I'll spend five bucks here, 10 bucks here.

But we weren't spending real money on tech, you know? Like no one's spending a thousand dollars for something um ever.

So I wonder whether there are like premium companies and or or assets in tech that will be priced so high just in order to extract revenue from users and and grow a business. There was never really that tier for consumer businesses before.

So, those are some, some thoughts.

Yeah, I think um in the recent uh like the launch of uh Chat GPT Bing uh interview that Satya did, one of the things he mentioned was like yeah, if we as humanity have to go, like we have to increase our productivity.

Like where does that productivity come from? Like and he thinks that, you know, AI will be that sort of underlying force that will shift all the boats. It's it's sort of like the the rising tide that will shift all the boats.

And I can see that play out, but again, um, how good that AI will become and how mainstream it will become and how faster it will become. Like those are all the things that yet to be seen.

But there are I think I mean I think uh we've sort of like overestimate also like how fast can we do this stuff and sometimes we also overcorrect. I think in short term, I think what is happening like not talking about the growth companies, right?

If you just talk about like the big tech uh the four or like maybe 10 companies at the top, um, I think these companies know much better in terms of what their expected revenue and profits are. Uh, like estimated revenue.

They are much more accurate than a regular business. Uh, they're much more predictable.

Uh, and I think there was this a little bit of a lax of an environment which led that because everything was growing, that I I actually disagree with you there that they didn't over hire. I think they did over hire.

Um, and especially when because uh I don't know if you have observed, every CEO now in the earnings call says that, hey, we thought uh the pandemic was the normal. And and I'm like, how how can you think the pandemic is a normal. It is a pandemic.

So uh so I think there there were some over hiring and I can understand for companies like, you know, Amazon, which had to dramatically scale their supply chain, it made sense. But I think pure software scaling maybe they did overhire.

I mean, I don't know can we say that's engineering overhire or sales overhire or you know, marketing overhire and that has, you know, we can debate that, but I think based on like what I've seen like the Seattle company's growth, uh I think companies did over hire and also like over pay, honestly because, right?

Uh that also now comes to the question of like the let's talk about the growth companies, right? Let's ignore the big tech which actually you know, highly profitable.

I think you wrote a tweet about what the four companies make 1.5 trillion uh revenue or something, right? These companies are making real money and like they have, you know, they are not worried about their business models.

But if you talk about the companies like Coinbase, Snapchat and uh some of these companies which are in 10 to 20 billion, you know, market cap range, I think these companies really were not run well.

I mean, uh because you can't hire engineers like Google if you don't have the margins like Google. I think for a long time a lot of startups thought themselves that, you know, we have to do this stuff and they didn't really think of the long term.

Because if yeah, you Snapchat, you're cool, but if you're paying the same amount as Google or more, then without actually making profitable profits, I think that's mismanagement of companies.

I think this will destroy the uh founder singularly owning the company status that the last 10 years gave because the last 10 years one of the things I think Google started this is the dual shareholder structure where which enables Mark Zuckerberg to control Facebook entirely, uh which enables Even Speel to control Snapchat entirely.

Uh, and now there's no really a controlling force. There's no force which can come in and say, hey, Snapchat is not well run because Snapchat is entirely controlled by one person's, you know, direction.

Um, and I think and even Coinbase for for a lot of things. I think there was a chief product manager and you know, CPO they hired who left the company in three years made like 200 or some ridiculous amounts of money, right?

I I will say that these are mismanagements that, you know, we have seen because of or like we can call it as a zero interest rate phenomena um that we have seen primarily in not the big tech actually because like if you see at Microsoft and not because I work there, but actually they it's not an extravagant workplace like people assume it is.

But if you actually go into their buildings and you know, look at uh, you know, how the buildings are run and when you compare that with a Google, yeah, it's not extravagant.

Google is a little bit more extravagant that everyone knows it's like the top of the uh bucket. Um, but my actually uh observation here is actually the 10 to 20 and 10 to 50 billion

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