Transcript: Build In Public or Not? w/ KP

Host: HKP, welcome to the show.

Guest: Hello, hey, hey. Thanks for having me, Natraj.

Host: I feel like you are a classic hustler on the internet. Um, because I, I've seen you tweet, uh, a lot and, but I know that, you know, in Twitter, your attention span is so low to notice a profile, uh, but I first start noticing like when one of our common, uh, friends, Wamsi started saying, hey, I know, KP, you should follow this guy. Um, so that's how I first started.

Guest: That was terrible advice by Wamsi, by the way.

Host: Um, I had, I added to my list. Uh, so I didn't take the advice fully.

Guest: There we go.

Host: But you do a lot of stuff, I think, uh, in three or four areas that I see based on your Twitter timeline. And you're also constantly betting. I think you're also like doing tiny bets all the time with building public, low code, no code, and community building. I think those are the three areas that you combine all the time and create something, uh, I see you coming up with another idea.

Guest: Right.

Host: in some form every now and then. Right. Uh, that is that an accurate description of you?

Guest: Yeah, pretty good, I think.

Uh, there's a lot of other nuances, but I think I, I was very curious about how you would describe me given like we don't have a lot of overlap except, you know, Wamsi and, um, no, I think that comes off, um, fairly accurate.

I'm actually also curious about this, um, since we're recording it anyway, um, from your lens, from your sort of far away lens, um, Natraj, it's like, what were like two or three things that stood out about my tweets and my content?

I'm just genuinely curious because I know you're going to, don't, don't, don't bullshit me, like just like what were some really.

Host: I think you, uh, I think you sort of, and I don't know if this, how much of this is strategy versus how much of this is, you know, accidental happen stance, right?

Um, I think you've strategized to sort of corner the internet with, you know, building public, uh, as a keyword and sort of, uh, consistently created content and repeatedly posted content around building public and sort of like became the guy for building public as a, uh, if, if like owning a keyword is a thing on the internet, I think it's a trend like Pomp, uh, for a long time owned the Bitcoin keyword.

Guest: Right.

Host: Right. Uh, on Twitter. And then you see, um, you know, I think Sahil was the one who created this minimalistic entrepreneur thing. Like he coined a new word to own it, that's an easiest thing to do. Yeah. on Twitter and create something new.

Yeah. Yeah. create hyper around it. Uh, so I think, uh, you focused a lot on this, um, and you also, I think dabble with community building and low code movement sort of in that building public being the broad idea. Like that is my takeaway of you.

Guest: I appreciate it. Six, you know, I think mission accomplished. That was the, that was definitely, I was definitely what my, uh, strategy was. It was initially definitely spontaneous and serendipitous.

There was nothing where I just woke up and had this insane insight that man, this is for you. You should go into building public. It was more so where, I was the first, maybe like 2018 is when I started and, uh, this is actually worth mentioning.

I had 414 followers in 2018.

Host: Mm.

Guest: And I truly started there. Um, until then I was like sort of, you know, on and off Twitter, using it mostly for movie reviews and shit like that. Um, I intentionally began the journey at 414 followers.

Host: Mm.

Guest: I think roughly in November 2018. And at the time, I was, uh, I was a nobody, quote unquote. I was new to no code, new to tech, new to startups.

And, uh, I had, I was in Atlanta and, I'm still in Atlanta, but I still, I had no wedge to sort of the market, per se. You know, I had no network, I didn't go to Harvard, MIT. So it was basically a plain like open blank white page.

Like I was like, all right, it can be worse than this. Maybe the, you know, it can be worse maybe.

Host: Mm.

Guest: But I was like, I got nothing to lose. So, and also I was on the sidelines for six, seven, eight years.

I was on on these H1B jobs, hopping company to company, but never really built and shipped any product slash software app slash any of these things that I wanted to. So, I said, you know what?

I probably, there's nothing else that I can do here, there's nothing to lose. How about I just explore, you know, this new movement that's rising called no code.

And no code was so empowering for someone like me because I didn't know how to code and I was non-technical.

And no code allowed you to leverage those tools quickly to go to market, you know, and build something and iterate from there over and over again. So I built the whole like, you know, my whole portfolio 15 projects all in public. And I was doing this.

I realized that I was releasing a lot of screenshots. I was releasing a lot of beta features that are janky and broken.

And like I just, I just enjoyed building with my, my community of 400, 500, 600 people as opposed to this dramatic building stealth and then suddenly surprise them and wow them kind of thing. I never really resonated with that.

So people started calling me, like people started like anytime there was a topic of building public or anytime was like, what is this thing? And other people quoted me in those threads. And I think somewhere around 2019 I decided, well, you know what?

This might be my niche, you know. Um, a lot of folks, there's this whole concept of niching only to a persona. Like you have to niche down to a persona.

For example, like IndieHackers is a niche or, um, a young marketer is, you know, millennial Gen Z marketer whatever is a niche. I disagree.

I think a niche could be basically, like like you said earlier, it could be just a tiny piece of real estate in your customer's minds.

It doesn't matter if it's a persona or if it's some other way or whatever, if you can corner, find a corner on the internet that's not taken and you can go occupy that spot, but be a humble guardian and a, a proper gate, a proper, um, Sherpa or like a serviceman of that corner, like do it good by it.

Um, you're going to, you're going to become sort of the owner of that SEO or other other keyword.

And so over time that I've leaned much more intentionally into that, and I didn't predict all the things I did later, like the podcast and all the other things, but it was fun at the time and I kept doing all the things that seemed fun to me.

Host: Who are like some of the other good built in public sort of, because you, I'm sure you've seen more in terms of in this building public sort of, uh, niche.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: So the, I'd say the OG, there's some OGs that were like around much before then even I was around. Um, so like, you know, Ryan Hoover, you know, founder of Product Hunt, uh, actually he wrote a very popular article called The Rise of Building Public or Why Building Public is the Right Thing to Do or something, um, on Medium.

Host: But did he do that while he was building Product Hunt?

Guest: Yeah, he was, this is 2014, 15. And this is during peak Product Hunt era and he was actually one of my inspirations and I said this many times to him where, uh, he would release like an upcoming features InVision prototype.

If you remember InVision, you know, before Figma, that was the hot thing.

Um, he would just drop that on Twitter and just say like, people, um, he just say like, hey guys, this is what we're thinking about, you know, if you want to chime in, give feedback.

And so people like literally would, including me, would go into that and you leave comments and talk about like which which particular new feature is exciting, like in the new landing page, whatever. So, I think he was one of the OG's.

Host: Mm.

Guest: Uh, Peter Levels is very famous, um, Indiehacker. Yeah.

Host: Right.

Guest: Yeah, definitely one of the one of the OG's.

Arvid Kahl, who's now, um, like super lean like leaning into building in public and has been sharing his entire last three, four years of his whole journey on, um, Sahil Lavingia to an extent, uh, but the way like I, I feel like Sahil, like Sahil's just got such a great confident approach to this that it was inevitable that he was going to share everything about, um, the book and the way, you know, like I, I remember going into one of his, uh, Gumroad boardroom meetings on Zoom.

He literally built, like he did like two or three Gumroad boardroom sessions on Zoom publicly, you know. So I think that's another example and there's so many like amazing women too.

Um, Amanda Navidadi is one example, Guna Loe who I used to work at on Deck with. Um, yeah, there's, there's quite a few.

Host: I mean, in the core of it, what do you think is building public?

Guest: Great question. In a nutshell, it is really about, um, sharing your journey of becoming something, whether it's a founder, whether it's a creator, whether it's an author, writing a book.

Like taking on a project and an ambitious project that you think is ambitious for you. And sharing every part of the journey, every piece of the journey as much as you can.

Doesn't have to be extremely transparent, but like as much as you can, before you get there.

And I think a lot of folks want to get to that finish line, that milestone and then reflect back and write a memoir of, oh, here's like my golden years when I was running Airbnb or something if I was Brian Chesky.

I think what is way more interesting to me and inspiring and empowering to the world is if you can share at least some nuggets of it while it's happening.

Then it's less of a biography that's written from the lens of a Victor's mindset that you won and hence you're writing it, reshaping the past based on your current, you know, perspective, but it's more of a off the cuff in the moment, just in time narration of what's going on.

I think that's way more interesting to me, um, and to a lot of people and so that to me is building public.

Host: Got it. I mean, certain, so what I believe in general is like, if I believe in something, I start after a while you have to start questioning like why if you have strong beliefs, right?

Guest: Yeah.

Host: So one of the things with building public, I mean, this, this is all the positive side. Do you see any negative side of it?

Guest: Yeah, of course. Um, I, I think, you know, the negatives are really like misapplication of it, um, in in some use cases where I don't think it really shines.

For example, like let's say I had an angry email exchange with a customer, um, and like, you know, that use case probably doesn't need to be like, you know, I, I had a tweet that was saying like you don't need to, uh, air your dirty laundry in public and call it building in public, right?

That, I don't think that level of, uh, like a petty online exchange needs to be presented as this is part of building public, you know, I don't think it matters.

Um, there's certain things like for example like that was one example, but like other things where when I was around deck, everybody, um, there were so many like internal messages that that I was part of and I could have, you know, I quote unquote, if I was truly building in public like an absolutist, I should be like screencasting Twitch on Twitch our entire slack channel stuff, um, and outing customer information or financial, uh, or even like business strategies and I think that makes, you know, again makes no sense.

Um, yeah, I mean those are two examples, but the other thing too is when you build in public, a lot of the times you, you, you are forced to develop thick skin because you're going to attract, uh, a lot of attention slash commentary into judgment, whatever you want to call it, into your affairs.

A lot of people who want to build in stealth are trying to avoid this scenario.

Because when I'm developing like an idea that is so fragile, so new, so like imagine like putting it out there and suddenly the entire wave of Bitcoin maximalists are going to attack it just because it's like the thing is a threat to them.

Or if I'm developing something, you know, that's in early stages of becoming something and like the whole no code people are coming at me.

So, but I feel despite these through three things I mentioned, if you apply it in the right way in the right scenario, I think it's in invaluable in the sense that it's a it's a great mechanism to first build thick skin because inevitably if you want to build a public company, you need to have thick skin, like if you're Brian Chesky, there's no escaping.

Everyone's going to watch every step of you any way, everywhere, anytime. So it's like you can't escape it anyway.

And I think, um, sorry, and I think it, I think you, one thick skin, the other thing is you learn how to craft content and messaging and and marketing, uh, stuff in a way that resonates with people because you're always testing your material.

So Sahil wrote the whole book based on what he tweeted the year before. So he was always testing passages of the book before it became the book.

Host: Yeah. I, I guess I, I see, in my perspective, there are a couple of negative sides I also see along with positive sides. The positive sides are obvious, you know, it's another way of building audience, I would say, Yeah. because I don't know if you've followed vlogging on YouTube.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: to me what it reflects is mostly like, oh, vlogging on YouTube. Like, Yeah. similar trend.

Guest: Yeah. Yeah, when Casey Nystad was doing his startup, his whole idea of vlogging is to get customers for his startup, which he eventually sold to CNN. Um, but there are a lot of positives obviously. I think one negative I see is this over, um, I guess when in the building public, the build becomes all the content on the public side. There's no actual build behind it.

Guest: Right.

Host: That's the most common now. Like I think we're at the peak of the, you know, cycle of hype cycle. Maybe it will fall and you know come and stabilize, but the number of threads, here are the 100 tips you don't have. Yeah. go through. I've read the 10,000 books introduction.

Guest: Right.

Host: Yeah.

Guest: I think I agree. I feel like that's, uh, I'm like very curious around where that will go.

I feel like that was a, um, sort of a intervention that happened recently, maybe like the last six to eight months. because it was like even Peter Levels talks, Peter Levels talks about this and I think he blocked everybody who was writing threads where he was saying, I'm seeing more of people who are actually, um, I want to be around more people who are actually building, underlying the building part in public than, you know, like writing in public and writing threads in public and I, I feel like, you know, the way I, you know, have interpreted that, Natraj, is that something happened and somebody called the folks who are on Medium and LinkedIn to come to Twitter and ruin this party.

Because things were much more authentic and they were, you know, more vulnerable and open and like they were not threats around four tips that you need to learn from Guy Kawasaki's video.

Like that's some bullshit shit that you used to, people used to write on LinkedIn on Medium. Something happened, somebody made a phone call in, uh, you know, earlier 2022 I think or maybe 21.

And suddenly I've seen a whole plethora of folks who are gaming Twitter algorithm to just, you know, create more engagement. Um, but I also think some of this ownership has to lie back on Twitter as a product platform.

If I was VP of Twitter, and if I'm watching this phenomena, and like this is clearly interrupting people's actual feeds where they're really sharing actual lessons, like Paul Graham writes a thread, there's some actual lessons in there, right?

But you're seeing some of this crap that is that's like, you know, 95 tips you need to know because I just turned 95 and you're like, they're so lame and you're like that's just, you know, hey but, so lame, but anyway.

Host: Yeah.

Guest: Yeah, it's a very hard algorithm to figure out and actually make effective it because you're essentially saying that this is good taste versus this is bad taste.

Host: Yeah, but see that's the thing and also a lot of people would like argue and I'm sure, you know, the folks who are listening to this podcast are also probably shaking their head because they're thinking, how do you have the high horse KP and Natraj who who are you the gatekeepers of society to say, that's more tasteful than this, you know.

So, I get it, but I'm just saying as someone who was on Twitter for the last four years, the first three years was not like this. It was way different. Even the threads were different.

They were threads, but they were like even Peter Levels, if you if you see some of his, you know, most popular stuff, it's him writing about how he built a particular tool like step by step by step by step and that was thread.

Not of, you know, 19 lessons I learned from, you know, having a pet total. You know like that's like the dumbest, you know, I lost IQ thing, but who's to say, right? We'll see.

Host: Yeah. what do you think about low code, no code and where that is today?

Guest: I think it's an, it's a definitely an exciting, um, you know, uh, inflection point when I was active, it was definitely way early.

It was like we were in the early adopter part of the curve. if you remember the bell curve of adoption, we were like in the early doctor curve.

I think it's reached the early majority, you know, in the last one year. a lot more people know what bubble is, what airflow is. Um, it hasn't crossed the chasm in my view.

Crossing the chasm would mean it would go mainstream where someone on Instagram, someone on, um, YouTube would talk about, like someone as in mainstream consumer. I'm not saying like techie person.

I'm saying like an average mainstream consumer who's, they should like bring it up almost like they would bring up Robin Hood, right? Or they would bring up Canva.

So if we have, you know, some more, um, months and years to get there and that's one of the things I'm, you know, when I chat with the no code low code founders, that's something I bring up all the time, even like with Bubble, um, CEO, Emanuel.

I'm always like trying to say what are some things we could do where we can make no code more mainstream?

Because it's still within our tech bubble, within our tech Twitter bubble and it hasn't like gone to the next stage, which I think it will, it's just a matter of, you know, it's just a matter of time and adoption.

Host: Yeah, I, I mean, with no code, I think, I mean no code or low code, I think there's always going to be a tech skewed audience because inherently like why does world has less number of developers? It's because of the same reason because like very few people are interested in it.

Guest: Right.

Host: So I think the crossing the chasm might not actually look like what, you know, it look like a consumer app for Robin Hood because No, I think no I would.

Guest: product.

Host: No, I would, I would question that assumption though.

I think the reason what you just said is predicated on the assumption that the reason why we only have 26 million developers, which is 0.3% of the world being developers, is because people don't want to develop. Actually, that's I think incorrect.

Probably there's some truth to it, maybe a grain of truth, but what is more true, I think is that the tools haven't evolved to a point where creating a new app or a new website, you know, shouldn't feel that difficult.

Like my generation, I remember when I, you know, like I if you if you hand this new iPhone 13 to anyone in my generation in India, they're still using it like they would hold a regular, you know, phone.

They still don't know the most powerful feature of this, which is you can record an entire movie. Like you can do Adobe After Effects, you can do all these things on this. And our generation almost take it for granted.

Like the fact that you're you have a podcast, the fact that I have a podcast, is truth that more people of always wanted to have podcast except that it was not that easy to record it over air and have transistor or Spotify or anchor distribute like that.

Host: But I would argue in the podcasting example, there's actually, there's a, there's one simple shift that changed the game for podcasting which is the guests are okay now to come on to do a remote podcast versus pre-pandemic, uh, it wasn't everyone wants to come.

Guest: Right.

Host: Of course.

Host: There were certain behavioral shifts in podcasting.

Guest: Exactly. But that's exactly what I'm saying. But it's not that they were not, the people were not, like there were not enough people willing to do podcasting.

Because that's like saying like, you know, there were not enough people willing to drive automatic transmission in cars. I grew up in India and you I'm sure you grew up too. All I remember was driving a car with the four the gear manual transmission.

I even laughed at people when I was a kid or when I was, you know, not a kid, but like in teenage years that if you don't was not driving shift, like the thing I was thinking like you were you were weak or you were like you're not skilled enough.

But now here in the US, because of whatever behavioral shift that happened in 1940s and 50s, America democratized driving to a point where a grandma can drive a Rolls-Royce automatic.

So the technology is evolved to a point along with consumer behavior, of course, but I think inherently dismissing like there is not enough people who would want to create, I think is is questionable.

Host: because I just spoke to.

Guest: It's just a lot people in 400 people in Haiti. Literally, just before this call, where they were dying to create some new software, apps and websites and they're trying to figure out how to create it.

Host: So, it's not about actually, uh, people want to create. I think there are enough number of people who want to create stuff, but it's just that in the distribution of like person to interest fit, like different people have different interests. Right.

Host: There's always this distribution, uh, whether you want to build something tech heavy or not. And as you change the abstraction level of where that tech building is. For example, take Canva, right?

More people are interested building something using a Canva than more people are interested in doing your Adobe Adobe Photoshop, right? That's a classic, uh, abstraction difference, uh, between.

Guest: That's exactly what I'm saying. So I think there could be a glide or a softer or something else brand new that would be as fun and has dumbed down and has user-friendly so that more people would create. Like I built 15 no code apps.

But if you met me in 2016, there's no way in hell that I thought I could build even one app without learning how to code. So I think what it's also a factor of learning what's possible for you.

You know, I also have put like building an app on a huge pedestal, thinking like I met with so many developers back when I was in 2016 and I was trying to like recruit them to be a co-founder or CTO or whatever.

And I put them on a huge pedestal because I knew that wow creating software is such God given. I disagree now completely.

In fact, I have more leverage, people like, you know, Sahil Bloom has more leverage, um, Julian Shapiro has more leverage, David Perre has more leverage than millions of software developers who are just coding apps and putting it on Indihackers.com.

So, the skill, the hard skill is now become more of an achievable skill through all these bypasses of either no code or low code or whatever. So hence the skill has lost the pedestal.

Of course, it still is valuable just as valuable as, you know, like any other, you know, valuable skill, right? Like any like design.

Like if I'm creating a new app that I want to raise around from A16Z, I need to hire a designer, um, a front end designer.

So, I mean, that part is still existing, but I think, um, no code like really changed the leverage stakes in the table in my view.

Host: So, what are there some good, uh, low code, no code examples that made it big?

Guest: Some, some, um, like let's start with no code, right? Of course, Bubble, you probably heard about Bubble. Yeah, I'm like, but Bubble is not technically a low code no code, right? It's actually a full-fledged scalable application on top of which you can create low code no code. So, um, any other or like pieces that are built on top of.

Host: So you meant, you meant the other way around. You basically meant projects slash.

Guest: businesses that were built on top of code tools, right?

Guest: Yeah.

Guest: Yes. Yeah, I mean I have a whole long list of this. Uh, if you go to Maker Pad, there's like a huge list. Um, you know, but some, some once, a few that come to mind, um, are this, I don't know if you've heard of this thing called, uh, facto.

Host: No.

Guest: I bring this up all the time.

Host: No.

Guest: Facto F a c t e l e. app, facto. app, was a, um, was a game created by one of my friends, um, Garrett. Um, shout out Garrett.

And it's inspired by Wordle, built on, built with no code tools, basically built with Bubble, essentially, most of it was Bubble. And they had close to 7.5 million games played.

I think when they launched, they had within that weekend they had like a million games played. It went viral. Um, and so I mean they're still running, they don't have any servers. They're still running like on Bubble.

Host: It's all written on Bubble.

Guest: Yeah, fully written Bubble. And so that's one fun example. Like somebody built a no code, uh, game, you know, built on Bubble. What, what else? Um, there is a, you know, you know shout out?

Host: Yep.

Guest: I don't know if you've heard of shout out. Sharath. Sharath's my good friend again. Um, turns out that I have a lot of no code low code friends, as you can tell. I'm in the, I'm in the niche.

Host: Perks, perks of being Twitter famous.

Guest: Well, yeah, I I mean I don't think I have all possible, uh, niche friends, but at least in the at least in the, uh, no code and building public. So yeah, Sharath built his thing called shout out, which is a microsas tool.

Um, it essentially allows you anyone to create a quick wall of love based on a collection of tweets. It's not rocket science, it's very simple, but built on Bubble and he closed, I think he's just closed to, uh, 30K ARR.

And it's a side project, so it's the passive income for him, you know. Um, that's another. There's another one called swag.store, which I don't know if the website exists. think about branded swag.

Host: What's that?

Guest: I think I've seen this.

Guest: You've seen this one?

Host: Yeah.

Guest: So actually they are my, uh, this, you know, this is shout out. Gary Darna, again good friend of mine, uh, he was he was a collaborator with me and built, we built the building public, you know, um, merch.

But he's close to 700k in revenue and it was all no code. It was basically no code low code. It was actually part Webflow and then Xeno, X A ando.com, which is a low code tool. And, uh, there's a marketplace called, um, Swapstack.

I don't know if you've heard of it, but Swapstack.com is actually a marketplace where they connect brands to newsletter creators.

So if I have a newsletter and I want to advertise Morning Brew in my newsletter, like that's the place to, you know, make connections and like, uh, set up.

Host: This came out of on deck.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: Yeah.

Guest: These are guys.

Yeah, they were, um, couple of them we used to work at on Deck, Jake, both Jakes and uh one of my good friends now Kelly's working there in their company and she built some of the later stage stack of this, but was all no it's still Bubble.

And they're more than like 500k GMV I think last I checked. So, I mean there's imagination is the limit, right? I mean as these tools are gaining more robust infrastructure from the back end.

Like the Bubble that I saw of seven years ago or six years ago is not the Bubble that is on there right now. They've evolved so much. So if you build something on Bubble today, it's way different compared to like, you know, five, six years ago.

And same thing with Webflow, right? So, as they are evolving, I think no code local infrastructure is like a Re tool for example, there is they just raised at $3 billion valuation. Re tool's an amazing example.

Um, a lot of folks, for example like DoorDash, a very tech heavy product, right? It's grocery delivery, etc. Did rely on Re tool internally completely. And I I saw Re tool at on Deck, of course. But like Peloton and some of these others.

And so their entire, I mean of course there's Devs who are using Re tool because it's a local tool. But I think the rapid prototyping and the rapid like going to iteration has like completely changed the game, you know.

Um, yeah, for me, to me they are not, to me, sorry, just one last point. To me they're not mutually exclusive, like code versus no code. I think it's they're three paths to get to the same destination.

One's a bypass, but it's it only has certain things. You will miss certain things. the other one local is slightly more elegant, but still there's a little bit of compromise. Code is, of course, the ideal path. But it's like driving a car and shift.

If there's, if I go to a Hertz rental and if they have a lineup of of cars, I would never choose a manual unless I don't have any other automatic transmissions.

Host: Yeah. for me the more exciting part is, uh, because I always look at any idea in terms of is it investible.

So I'm always looking for what is the next abstraction level at which we can create the next version of Bubble or Webflow or Re tool, right?

That that's for me that's more interesting because that will, that should potentially unlock a lot of new cases that are not yet unlocked, right?

I mean we, you must have faced a lot of like limits when you're thinking about ideas, hey, we can't do this so you have to make compromises in terms of you know attaching apps or connecting apps or creating an automation and stuff like that.

Guest: Yeah.

Host: That's that's why I, um, I missed the first wave of no code investments because I was not a, no I was nobody then and I didn't have, you know, investible cash back then.

But the moment I saw the second wave come in, I started writing small checks. So I invested in, uh, Softer. Because Softer was building upon, again, the first generation if you think about it like, you know, Webflow and Bubble and Airtable.

The new generation is like Softer and, um, to an extent Kota and some of these other things that are like building upon the lessons of those.

And you're right, I mean there's always going to be the next generation which I think will have an edge and an edge and and it's to me it's never ending because, um, it's it's just like evolution of software development.

The the final ending point would be Jarvis where you would talk to like literally in AI, um, and say, look I want to, I want you to create like a marketplace for me, um, fill it up with some dummy data and boom Jarvis does it for you, right?

Like the Iron Man example.

Host: you seen Westworld? Do you watch Westworld? Do you watch Westworld?

Guest: I've heard of it, I haven't watched it yet.

Host: Yeah, and so in Westworld, uh, there's a lot of advanced AI and like what happens if, you know, with thousands of AI, uh, capacity. Uh, so in Westworld, they're basically creating stories for humans.

So, there's a whole company which is actually creating stories, but the interesting part is that the designers there are storytellers. So they're going to work and they, they're basically saying, hey, create this new storyline.

There's a woman somewhere else, uh, and they basically attach these story stories to real human beings and basically give them a, uh continuous loop.

So it's a bizarre world, but the design element of stories and, you know, how AI takes that and creates a story form. Uh, like there are a lot of, uh, futuristic things that, um, Westworld explores.

Like even the no code aspect of it, um, if you see the tablet version of it, uh, that they use, I feel like we are just getting, every iteration of Samsung's foldable phone is just, you know, we're shooting to get the Westworld device, uh, essentially.

Guest: Interesting.

Host: Interesting.

Guest: The uh the what is it? Dally recently, right? Dally 2, reminds me of this journey that you're talking about. Like going to that place where eventually like you can have art, you know, based on your voice command. There was a company that Ryan Hoover invested in called Voice

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