Transcript: Bear.Tax Co-Founders on simplifying Crypto Taxes
Listen to the full conversation with Bear.Tax co-founders Tela Andrews and Vamshi on The Startup Project podcast. They discuss the origin of their crypto tax software, the complexities of NFT and DAO taxation, their strategy for building a global tax engine, and share valuable lessons learned from their recent seed fundraising round.
2022-04-09
Host: This episode of Startup Project is brought to you by be.tax. be.tax compiles all your crypto transactions and makes it easy for you to file your taxes. Check out be.tax that is b.tax.
Host: Hey Taylor and Wamshi, welcome to the show.
Wamshi: Hey. Taylor: Hey.
Host: Um, so obviously this is an interesting episode because, uh, you know, I think there's a potential conflict of interest that I need to disclose for our listeners, why I am throwing softballs to you guys in the interviews.
Uh, because obviously, uh, I invested in be.tax recently and you're about to announce your, you know, seed, uh, round. So I'll just, um, throw out that information before, you know, we get started.
Um, I want to talk, you know, primarily about, you know, be.tax and what you guys are doing about, uh, you know, uh, solving the tax problems in, you know, crypto sector.
Uh, but before that, uh, you know, if you can give a brief overview of what you have been doing before, uh, be.tax in terms of your career, that would be, you know, a good introduction for the listeners.
Uh, so, Taylor, why don't you give me a little bit of introduction, you know, what you've been doing, uh, before be.tax?
Taylor: Yeah, sounds good. Appreciate the opportunity to, to meet everybody here, Nataraj. Um, so before Bear Tax, the, you know, my journey was both in growth, product, and then in, in tax software itself. I never thought I was going to be the guy that'd say, hey, I'm into tax software. Um, but I experienced tax as a challenge in businesses that I grew before. Um, and so, you know, in my, uh, when I was looking for a next role to take on, I actually ended up as the, uh, product manager for the flagship product at a company called Avalara, which is the indirect tax, sales tax, GST, and that leader. Um, and really helped grow that business through international expansion, product expansion, distribution, self-service strategy, um, from about 40 million in revenue to about 160 million in revenue on IPO. Um, and I really kind of got bitten by the bug of solving, uh, tax problems at scale. Uh, and so I've helped a number of Fortune 500 companies with that on a consulting basis, uh, and got the opportunity to really get involved with Bear Tax and, um, it's innovation happening in tax and that doesn't happen too often. So, that's really what drew me in and kind of where I'm coming from to, to head at this problem set.
Host: Wamshi, what about you?
Wamshi: Um, myself I've have been like into um product building, like making products. It's it's more on the technological side. So I've been a UI UX consultant for the past 11 plus years. So I I'm into interfaces. Like I like uh how products are built, how the products have been evolving over the last 10 years and how I can build something in the consumer market. So, I have tried out like multiple mobile and web applications in terms of like um supply chain market, um, consumer market, like buying and selling marketplaces and some of the um, even like transportation kind of car pooling and other stuff. And finally like uh it it was always like trying to find a solution to a problem that everybody has it outside. So that's how tax was also born. So it it's something a problem that I was uh diving deep into crypto and uh trading and having putting up so many transactions and finally trying to find a solution. So, it's always been um more I was in where I was building products, apart from like what I was doing. Uh, so that that's what has driven me into this.
Host: Uh, so let's talk about, you know, be.tax, right? Since uh, it's a good segue to how it actually started. Uh, so what has actually led to, you know, starting be.tax?
Wamshi: Uh, be.tax was born in like early 2018 uh and and the same time uh of the year. It's because like 2017 was like, it's a bull market. Everybody was getting into crypto. I was like uh more into blogging and understanding like what what was happening in crypto. So I was running a blog called Confused Coin and was trying out various applications. So bot trading was one of the uh things that I was trying out. And uh it has put out like taking $100 into the system, the code has put out like about 18,000 transactions which is a lot. And when you cumulatively look at that, at that time Coinbase didn't have the capability to provide any tax documents. So it has put out saying like $1.06 million of transactions or something, which I definitely don't own because I have tried trading only $100. So, yeah, that that's when there is a necessity which I wanted to like figure out what's actually my tax liability and I have to file my taxes. So that's when uh I was already looking into like building a portfolio application. So me along with a couple of friends who are uh building this portfolio application try to pivot into like building a tax software. It's not tax software, a solution that will help me get out of that problem. And uh we were able to like successfully pass through all the transaction and um get the gain loss statement and create uh generate the IRS form. So then we try to put out an interface on top of it that can help other customers because we have been seeing this problem being posted on Reddit because everybody was getting that from the Coinbase.
Host: So it's a classic case of, you know, solve the problem for yourself and you, you know, find a product or, you know, market where you can solve it for the rest of the uh, community or user base.
Uh, Taylor, your uh entry into be.tax is also a fascinating journey, right?
Like, because you were not the original, uh, you didn't, uh, you were not the original part of the three people you were uh, you know, working on be.tax and you came uh, later into be.tax. So talk to me about how that happened.
Taylor: Yeah, so the, um, it is a fun story. Uh, I had been consulting with, uh, a large Fortune 500 company, um, for the last year, actually building a tax product that was focused on physical assets and really solving the problem of bringing data around physical assets for, um, tax depreciation from multiple systems, um, uh, consolidating that, doing the transformation and then running a tax engine on it. Uh, so it was just incredibly, um, interesting that I ran into, you know, the opportunity Bear Tax, which is essentially solving that same problem today but for crypto taxes. Um, and so I'd been, I was on a one-year contract and I was looking at, you know, what do I do next? Um, the company I was working for is very much a, you know, enterprise where people need to sit in the seat and, uh, I'm I'm much more entrepreneurial and that didn't really appeal to me. So, um, I'd been looking on a site called Micro Acquire and I actually found, you know, Wamshi had been looking for partners that, you know, could come in and help transform the business. That's one of the avenues he was exploring and, and I saw it pop up and I'm like, this is just too good to be true. It is a perfect fit for kind of where I am and where I'm coming from. And my God, I really hope that this guy is willing to talk to me. So that's uh, that's how we got connected and uh, I think it was fairly obvious from the first conversation that we were going to work really well together.
Host: And uh, right now, uh, how are you approaching Bear Tax? Because, you know, uh, initially just purely in terms of product and business strategy, you like uh, is it primarily focused on consumer side or enterprise side or who who's essentially your customer and talk to me a little bit about what is the business strategy that you're approaching.
Taylor: Yeah, so today our customers are investors. And those are investors either, you know, at the kind of retail level who are doing individual trading on a few exchanges, have crypto activity, um, you know, in, in wallets of various types. Um, but it's also commercial traders who are doing high frequency trading with bot networks. Um, you know, one of the fantastic things is that, you know, the product that we built is, um, is really, uh, appropriate for either of those use cases and especially because we are international. We're seeing there's there's a lot of high frequency trading that's happening um, as a commercial activity, not just in the US. And so our international footing as well as our platform capabilities really allow us to service those two markets. Um, in terms of kind of product strategy and where we're going, we we're going to double down on that. And really the vision that we have is a planet scale tax engine. We think that we can solve this globally for every user, every crypto investor in the market and, you know, I've built, I've built the team that can actually go and execute on that. Um, and then it's really going up market from there and serving the accounting firms that are helping their clients, uh, with their crypto taxes, into the enterprises who have treasury and other, um, you know, other requirements that are not met by current solutions. Uh, and then eventually, potentially into, um, into supporting governments as they interact with crypto tax data. Um, that's what I want to double click on just uh because, you know, the issue of government is uh, is sensitive to the decentralized nature of crypto. So we're going to be really sensitive about that and I'm not I I'm only eager to get into the government, uh, sector to enable overall growth of the crypto market and that's really only going to happen when government is comfortable that there's, um, that there's both tax compliance and risk management and governance happening. So we're looking at the right balance of that, but really I'm interested in, um, in opening the market through serving government while maintaining the value of the decentralized nature of crypto and we'll only get into that area of business when I can solve both of those.
Host: Yeah, I think, uh, the compliance part is interesting because when you see how many exchanges that are out there, uh, you know, we have Coinbase, we have, you know, so many exchanges that are out there, but one key differentiator between a successful exchange versus, you know, unsuccessful one is the compliance, right?
Because, uh, compliance matters at the end of the day even though it is decentralized, you know, even though it gives you pseudonymous, uh, things that you can do with, you know, crypto, but at the end of the day you want it, if you want it to be legal and if you want it to exist in some form, I think compliance will come into picture at some time.
And that's the only probable way that you actually, you know, evolve the whole sector. Um, but another interesting thing I want to talk about is, uh, there are a lot of areas that are coming up in crypto, right?
There is, you know, Dows, there are NFTs, you know, and there are different types of smart contracts that are coming up. Uh, what is your typical uh, you know, user focused on right now?
Taylor: So, you know, um, I'll answer that and I think Wamshi will probably have a an informed point of view on that. But the, the majority of users are primarily investing in, in the major coins, but it's the degree of experimentation that we're seeing happening outside of that that's really increasing. So, um, my my sense is that more people are getting involved in experimenting in, you know, the um, the more cutting edge aspects of crypto. Um, and so they've still, most of them are probably still maintaining a certain percentage of their activity that's focused on that. They've got a core that's focused on the, the well-known and understood coins and uh, and blockchains, but we're seeing more people that are experimenting with that 20% of their portfolio, they're putting towards the more experimental and higher risk, um, options that are out there.
Wamshi: Uh, we increasingly see uh mature actors that as as Taylor was mentioning. So that 20% of their portfolio like people try to take it the risky way. So uh they either like do some liquidity pooling, they take it and stake it on some of the uh platforms and also the new play-to-earn games and staking your NFTs and all that stuff. So, yeah, there there are uh users like uh good amount of users doing all the um risky D5 stuff venturing into like various unknown parts and trying to maximize the yield. Uh, but but when we come to like what's our majority user look like, it it's mostly the sticking to exchanges and trying to invest it and grow it over the period of time. So looking into more long-term gains.
Host: I mean, it's quite interesting that, you know, a couple of years back everyone used to talk about two to 5% and suddenly, uh, we see the 10 to 20% allocation of crypto coming into, you know, in in general popular culture.
Like everyone now talks about 10 to 20 versus two to 5% which used to be the case.
Uh, but moving on, um, one interesting thing, I mean, whenever you look at any company through an investor hat, uh, you're always looking to evaluate the total addressable market.
And there is still uh, you know, when right now if you look at all the tax engines/tax companies that are in crypto space, there are a couple of companies at least in the US which have become big, uh, and sort of like uh, you know, getting the status of uh, you know, we are the tax company for crypto sector, right?
Uh, how how do you guys and Taylor, you've been outside Bear Tax and now inside it, right? Like, how do you see the total market potential here and um, how do you think about that market in general?
Taylor: So the total market is really every person that touches crypto and every business that touches crypto. And essentially, that's a um, that's a converging line with the entire population. Our goal is to, you know, to service that as much as possible and then to make those lines converge as quickly as possible. So, you know, the total addressable market is, you know, within five years, a majority of the world's population, both in terms of businesses and people. That's where we're setting the line and that's what we're going after.
Host: Uh, in terms of generally talking about crypto, what do you see and I just want to move away a little bit from Bear Tax and talk about, you know, crypto sector in general. Uh, what do you see are the new things that you're expecting to happen in next couple of years?
Taylor: Yeah, so we're seeing some interesting patterns emerge. Uh, I think that, you know, NFTs are particularly interesting from a, uh, from a tax standpoint because they are they're creating new conditions. So it's a condition where, um, both sales tax supplies and the income taxes and that's new. That's never actually existed before. Um, additionally, we're seeing that governments are really struggling with how to classify what kind of, you know, what is crypto? Is it an asset? Is it uh, is it gambling? Is it something else? And I think the core message here is that there is not a appropriate classification that exists today and that we will need to create new ones from a tax standpoint to that will have their own specific tax treatment. So those are the kind of the two emerging factors. The other one that I really see moving forward is central bank digital currencies. So as we think about central bank digital currencies being a sent being a platform that will enable high frequency payments, um, for a majority of, you know, population, it opens up new opportunities for how you actually apply tax and handle taxation. So it doesn't necessarily need to happen at the endpoint or with a distributed partner, but it can be bolted on kind of closer to the the core of how transactions are processed. So, uh, I think you'll see innovation in how crypto assets are treated from a tax standpoint. I think you're going to see unique combinations of taxes that you've never seen in the past. I think that will create disruption in actually the entire system of tax and ideally will lead to rethinking of how taxes uh actually should be applied with the new capabilities we have. Should we keep the existing legacy tax systems because that's what's always been done or does shifting and coming up with a uh a system and an approach that's appropriate for the crypto and uh web 3 world unlock potential in society and our economy that has not been there before. And that's the end state that I'm looking to get to. That's what I think will happen. I think a lot of companies that have built businesses on the existing way of uh taxation and commerce will have a big chasm to cross and will have a hard time doing it. And so, you know, I think that there's also a lot of opportunity there.
Host: I think, uh, that's very interesting because when governments come into crypto and do their digital coin. One of the things that will be disrupted is the legacy payment infrastructure, right?
Because any payment company that we talk about or listen about is essentially built on and is interacting with either Visa or Mastercard, especially in the developed markets.
And there is a hint of this change especially when you see in India, uh, Visa and Mastercard networks don't really work, right?
Because India created their own payment network which is UPI and that essentially takes out Visa's and Mastercard business and they have to now innovate on their business model, you know, how do you create an product when there's a need of, when there's no need for any new network or, you know, that Visa and Mastercard today currently established.
Uh, so that sort of will play out even in developed markets when, you know, when Visa and Mastercard's network are not needed and everything is running on blockchain and, you know, government created this, you know, currency which is interoperable with other government currencies potentially and then you are potentially looking at, you know, a lot of foreign exchange markets, a lot of um, companies whose business models rely on Visa and Mastercard are sort of have to adapt and change in at the core of and their core nature of business will probably also change.
And same with, you know, as you rightly pointed out with the taxes.
Um, so obviously one of the geographies that is huge right now in crypto is India and I also closely follow for obvious reasons and um, India recently, you know, I think came out with their own uh, you know, suggestions and uh changes with regarding to uh crypto.
Uh, talk to me about, you know, what uh, how those changes, uh, you know, are impacting crypto in general in India and the adoption, also, you know, what it means for taxation.
Taylor: Yeah, that's a, I mean, this is a development we've been waiting for and frankly one that I've been following since, um, you know, since before I was even really involved with Bear Tax. Uh, the reason is that I I see India actually being on the leading edge of innovation, uh, particularly related to the disruption that you mentioned that's coming for payment network providers in the US and elsewhere. Um, there's less entrenched, um, issues that need to be moved out of the way for uh, for crypto. There's also, I think interesting positive political uh, factors that are at play. So, you know, I'm really interested in the India market because of the size of the market, um, but not just because of the people who are adopting it now. It's because of who they are. It's because of the potential that they have and the potential penetration that will follow. So what we've really been seeing is that, um, crypto has been transformative for, uh, you know, the less advantaged portion of the population. So it's a great investment vehicle, but it's also a secure savings and remittance vehicle. That utility is super important to, um, to folks to maintain security of this, you know, the assets that they have to make sure that they've uh, you know, that they're able to um, to spend them, to, you know, to prevent theft. Um, that enfranchises a large portion of the population that, you know, generally, you know, has not had that same kind of seat at the table. Um, and then it enables at the same time the ability to, you know, have an entirely new asset class and revenue activity through people that are investing in crypto and the tax there, they can be devoted to, you know, to be redistributed and to, um, to help the overall economy. Uh, and so, you know, it's political factors, it's who is being affected by the um, the political factors there. Uh, and then it's also the, you know, the economic opportunity of the revenue that the government can, can generate and direct towards helping the people that excites me. The business opportunity is great. The companies there are fantastic, but it's really the opportunity to kind of do good and to be able to be a positive force in the economy.
Host: And I think an interesting theory that um I recently encountered within this change in tax policy towards crypto is, uh, traditionally uh India, if you look at the tax paying percentage population, it's it's pretty low uh when you compare to any other country, right?
And uh there's this theory that uh someone on Twitter, I think on Twitter came up with is, um, the fact that we are making crypto and providing a guideline for crypto taxation is basically securing, you know, future generation and ability to pay taxes in general.
So you're essentially creating top of the funnel for collecting taxes in general for India. So, it's an interesting thought I thought uh would be interesting uh to share with the listeners.
Um, but uh I I want to move on to the um since you've recently, as I mentioned, recently raised your uh seed round.
Uh, I want to talk about, you know, what has, you know, what has changed in your perspective about fundraising before and after uh raising capital for uh Bear Tax.
Taylor: Sure, so the the process of raising capital for Bear Tax has been just a lot of fun, right? It's been incredibly productive and any entrepreneurs out there that are raising capital, I I'd encourage you to use this as not only an opportunity to just get the money that you need to actually grow your business, but it's really, you know, use that as a forcing function to drive clarity of thought, to drive your plans to uh, to refine those as you go, um, you know, to really uh, to improve your likelihood of success. Uh, for us we've used it in that way. Um, it's a rapidly changing market and we are moving incredibly quickly as a team. So, you know, having that forcing function of raising capital and needing to be crisp on our story and our plan, continues as we do that has actually been an operational benefit for us. Um, so, you know, what we found is that the, you know, it's a flywheel. The more attraction you get, the more interest you get, the clearer your story is, the clearer your value proposition and how you'll make money, the more likely you are to attract capital. And the, you know, the the slippery slope is, uh, you know, you got to be able to know when to say when, when you've got enough capital. You got to focus on operating the business until the next time around. And so we are, you know, we've done well with raising our seed round and, you know, fingers crossed, uh, we got plans for the next series of capitalization in 2022.
Host: I want to double click on one uh point in terms of fundraising is, um, actually two things, one is the valuation, right? How do you decide what the right valuation?
Because especially right now what is happening is a lot of companies uh, there's no real physics behind, you know, what valuation that a startup is being given, right?
Because there is literally, I mean, it used to be a time where you do 10x MRR or 10x ARR.
That used to be the case and that used to be a, you know, a benchmark where you can look at and now we passed 100 X of, you know, MRR or ARR whatever we are looking at.
Uh, so how did you focus on value valuing Bear Tax, uh, when you were fundraising?
Taylor: Yeah, so I I looked at it um, and I'll be share transparently because I think that there's some lessons here that can help other founders as they go to market, um, go to market with their capital raise. Uh, what I did was I looked at what we needed to achieve the goals that I had set out for our next round and then I looked at the amount of uh dilution that I was interested in taking at this round as a benchmark and that's what set the amount that we wanted to raise. And transparently we went out with a higher valuation and a higher raise amount, uh, because I'm going to swing for the fences and, you know, I have a lot of confidence. And we we tested and we got pushed back and so we had to adjust to reality. And that's not a halo issue, it's not a perception issue, um, you know, that I have any concerns with talking about. It's just actually you finding price market fit as you go out to raise and you need to you need to take, you know, put a stake in the ground and say, this is what I think the business is worth, go out and test it with the market. And anybody raising a seed round should probably consider kind of the first 20 to 25% of their pitches and conversations almost more price setting than actually pitching to close. It's unlikely that you're going to close at that stage as you're refining your story, but also you probably haven't priced your round right yet and so you need that data and then you go back and you focus on actually closing those last 75%. So there's probably some heuristic in there where uh angel investors and VCs are going to start asking, you know, how many folks have you talked to and am I a price setting conversation or somebody who might actually uh might be looking to close. But, you know, that is in the in the world of fundraising where the terms precede seed, et cetera don't really have any meaning. I just think about you're raising on safes or you're raising a priced round. And as you're raising on safes, you are, you know, testing the valuation in the market, collecting feedback, setting a price and then growing from there. That's really the formula.
Host: Yeah, I think I mean, early stage rising is sort of, you know, a mutual understanding between investors and founders and, you know, their perception of the market and everything else in between.
Um, but one point uh it touched upon which is also one of the sort of tells you about the broader ecosystem of fundraising which is the seed to series A or series A to series B, the goals that you set and the amount of capital that you're raising, right?
That process actually is the way where you can judge an idea is worth pursuing or not, right? Are you executing it or not?
Because when you raise amounts that are not in terms of, you know, any any physics are following any logic, the problem is now this feedback cycle is lost.
If you over raise your or over capitalize your company, you'll have longer time where you will not realize that your company or strategy is failing in a way, right?
And you you'll not have that clarity or that driving force to pivot uh to the right strategies.
So, I think what is happening right now is those feedback loops are sort of extended, um, unnecessarily and people will end up pursuing ideas in and directions that shouldn't be pursued. Right?
So I think that is what I would say that is inefficiency right now in the market. Like I have to see how it will be, you know, corrected over time.
Um, but uh have you received any uh push back initially in terms of valuation when you're setting the price or uh how how that how did that negotiation happen?
Taylor: Oh yeah, specifically, I mean, there were there were some VCs or investors that were, um, you could read it on on their face, right? When you got to that part of the conversation and it's it's very much about having the right EQ and listening for what the person means versus necessarily what they're saying. Um, but we had some great folks that we talked to who were just really straight up front about it and I respect them for it and deeply appreciate the the outright uh response of like that is, you know, more expensive uh than I would expect given the stage of your company. You know, is the market telling you that that is, you know, what your company is worth? If not, then, you know, you should be looking at that and thinking about it and I love investors that are upfront like that. So, you know, not all of them can or feel they can be. Um, but we did get that direct feedback and we adjusted based on it and I mean, I'm a huge believer in um forcing functions and constraints as you mentioned, right? Having too much capital and the ability to be undisciplined is a it's not a benefit, right? Having the money and feeling like you're not going to run out of money is great, better to get that through revenue and through customers. If you want that that cushion and that good feeling, that's not what being a startup is about. Being a startup is about really understanding your constraints, executing on your plan within them and having to make hard choices around what you're doing that make your business better, more viable, let you capture more of the market. Uh, and those constraints are a tool and if as a uh, as an operator, you're not using that tool, you're missing out on a big part of what drives success in the startup world.
Host: I mean, one of the things right now in crypto is, um, you can't talk about crypto without talking about NFTs in last couple of years, right? Um, how did buying and selling NFTs change in terms of like how is it affecting the whole tax process, you know, how NFTs are changing the whole thing?
Taylor: Sure, so there's a couple of ways that NFTs are uh, um, intersecting with tax in in interesting ways. I touched on one earlier, which is that uh if you're selling an NFT, there is it's an asset. Um, so it is uh essentially something that needs to have sales tax applied to it. But if you're selling that NFT, there may be royalties that you have received from that NFT, you may have capital gains and there's been no other situation in the past that I'm aware of where you've had multiple income streams and tax types applied to the same transaction. So there's messiness there. There's no single solution out there that solves for sales tax on NFTs plus indirect tax and all these other areas. So it's really figuring out what is the appropriate solution. Uh, and that's on the taxation and buy side. The other side is on the sale side. So there's a lot of uh sale of NFTs and uh not always at a profit. And so, you know, are those um, are those profits are the, you know, the profits are taxable, but are the losses something that you can harvest and apply towards your gains elsewhere. Uh, and that's really going to be an interesting decision that we expect to come down from the US Treasury Department. Uh, some talk is out there that the, you know, the government will actually classify those as collectibles, which uh, would preclude you from being able to take the losses uh against your gains. And so that would impact kind of some of the some of the availability of tax strategies for uh, for NFT investors. But that's the that's the state today and probably throughout 2022. Um, you know, there's some more innovative opportunities around uh, around tax and I think about the, uh, the work that I was doing before Bear Tax dealing with physical asset, um, transactions. It's like, well, you can represent a physical asset digitally with an NFT. So it can actually be used as an innovative way to solve for other tax scenarios as a tax solution in and of itself, not just as a uh, uh as an a piece of art or some other media. Um, and then lastly, what I'm seeing is that uh, NFTs are enabling a large amount of uh direct to audience uh interaction with artists, musical artists, media artists. And, you know, just frankly I would say that that needs to be uh that needs to be nurtured as a benefit to society, right? Those folks have not had great access to income streams that were reliable, control of their own audiences and I think that NFTs are going to be transformative for the arts as a viable career path where you can support a family. And I think that's to society's benefit and should be encouraged.
Host: And one of the other interesting trends that we've seen is, you know, the blowing up of Dows, right? How how does like being part of a Dow affect my, you know, tax uh status and either Wamshi or Taylor if you can comment on that.
Wamshi: Dows basically like they are kind of organizations. You are a part of a startup, you are a part of a Dow. Uh the only difference is like it it's not structured in how the traditional uh startup is uh structured. So maybe you get paid uh by involving uh in in a Dow activities or you get paid in their own tokens or you get um paid in a certain crypto. So at the end of the day, it would be an income that you are generating uh out by providing your services. So it it would be considered as an income and taxed as per your income bracket. So that's the primary use case and there are other use cases where you get paid over a period of time and you get like um even even there are like access based. Again, Dows are giving and putting out access based restrictions using NFTs. So again there like how do you mint like what are you paying for that, getting that access and those kind of like it it again goes into like operation expenses as well as like the income that you are making out of it. And finally like what what is the gain that you are making at the end of the day. So that's how it's been treated. But yeah, it's still a grey area and a lot of more um regulations have to come in like what kind of structure is it defined as, uh, what kind of a business entity and other things uh will get evolved over a period of time.
Host: So, uh, we're almost at the end of our conversation. So, uh, two things I want to ask each of you is, uh, what is the NFT that you own and what are you looking forward in terms of uh, you know, executing in be.tax?
Taylor: Um, so I actually don't own any NFTs yet. Uh, my plan is to uh, work with my daughter who's an artist to mint her NFTs and to, um, to be able to actually uh, you know, create a marketplace for her on that. So that's going to be our first um, foray into them. Um, and then I'm sorry, the second part of the question was, Nataraj?
Host: Uh, what what are you looking towards, you know, in uh Bear Tax output in the next one year?
Taylor: Got it. So we are going after the the entire crypto tax market, vertically, horizontally, and around the world. So it's going to be an incredible journey of expansion, both in product and market and in strategy, uh, as we we transform from a investor only business and product to something that serves uh every player in the crypto ecosystem. Uh, so those are, you know, the lofty goals and I'm excited for for us to be able to execute on that with the team we've built.
Host: Wamshi?
Wamshi: Yeah, uh myself like I have been dabbling in NFTs, but one of the prominent ones that I own is like uh art made by one of my friend and actual original co-founder of be.tax Priyadi. So it's called like uh Outlier Dudes. So that's one of the NFT that I own and the other one is like the poets, uh one the second favorite. So