Transcript: Stonks.com: Ali Moiz on Investing, Streaming & Stonks

This episode of Startup Project is brought to you by bear.tax. Bear.tax compiles all your crypto transactions and makes it easy for you to file your taxes. Check out bear.tax. That is b a r.tax bear.tax. Hey Alec, thanks for being on the show. Here. Um so uh you know with s you're doing so many things and you're at the intersection of, you know a lot of interesting things around, you know democratization of investing, you know, providing investing access to more people. Um sort of helping founders to more things. Um but I first wanted to ask you about, you know your career before s and what you've done, um and we don't have to go into deep but you know just a quick introduction of what you've been up to before s. Yeah, sure, sure. I have been doing startups as long as I can remember. Uh, you know my first startup was uh making stickers in school in first grade, cutting them out and selling them to kids at lunchtime. Um, since then, they've grown a little bit bigger. I've had uh two venture funded exits, Peanut Labs and Streamlabs. Um, Peanut Labs got acquired by Dynata. Streamlabs uh built live streaming tools for streamers on Twitch, YouTube live. That was acquired by Logitech a couple of years ago. And then outside of that I also do a lot of Angel investing. Um, uh probably, you know, I want to say like close to 100 deals, um, uh mostly direct but sometimes LP LP into funds as well. So what led to yeah starting s and uh by the way s a great name. I think uh I don't know how much marketing value that name alone has. Yeah, you know it's funny. I picked it up when the whole like Wall Street Bets crisis was happening with GameStop uh and and before just before that. And uh, uh yeah, you know we like to keep things memorable and fun and a little light. Um, so you'll see a lot of memes, a lot of shit posting and like you know not we try we don't we try not to take ourselves too seriously because like look these investments will take seven to 10 years and really you don't really know which of them are going to work, right? Uh so don't don't take it super super seriously. Um, uh how did we get into this? So um, I think it's Streamlabs, you know is in the live streaming space, right? We're building live streaming tools and part of those were transactional tools, getting people to spend money, you know, tip content creators, support them, donate to them, etc. So we we paid out 750 million, like actually to content creators in five years, right? Um, and one of the questions for me was always like, could this be applied to any other verticals, like could this live streaming approach, these tools, these things we've learned that ultimately solves the trust problem be applied to other verticals where trust is a big issue, right? So so shopping and e-commerce is one one space. Investing is is is an even bigger problem. Uh startup investing in particular is, you know I I was an Angel investor, so I just cared more about this market. Um and it's a big trust problem because um you know, it's based on warm introductions, it's pretty closed groups of small circles and communities. Um, and uh you know, it's really difficult for people outside these circles to kind of break in and get great people to look at their deals. Uh to even have a seat at the table and you know, it shouldn't be that way. Some of the some of some of my favorite deals are like deals I found out of network. And and um people who really should be getting uh more of a look by insiders. And so we've put those two things together and and that's s and and the way we do that in a really simple way is is the format of a demo day, which investors understand already. A demo day is is is an event uh a regular event organized by an accelerator, incubator or or or a fund where where they're showcasing their their companies in a cohort and investors can can uh uh join join the rounds, co-invest. Um, you know the most famous one is obviously Y combinator which which started this whole thing uh more than a decade ago, but since then now demo days have become a staple. Uh the there's over a thousand um accelerators in the US alone. Um, and uh uh you know, most of them if not all of them do demo days. So s has built a platform for those demo days. We do our own event once a month as well. Uh but now we work with like Techstars, 500 Global, Draper, um, you know, uh uh SOSV, launch house, Zuger, uh you know, lots of great partners, like many of the names like in the top 10 or top 20 you would recognize uh do events today on s. Yesterday we had four demo days on s. One day, four demo days, Techstars, 500, Nest, which is an emerging markets incubator and uh Draper. What do you see the value prop, I mean the value prop for founders is pretty clear because you get to, you know their audience of, you know mainstream investors who are actively investing at one shot within, you know spending 10 minutes, right? That's the value prop of founders. So what is the value prop for the investors who are joining in? Uh it's it's the flip side of the same coin, right? It's in it's an efficient way to uh spend a little bit of time with a lot of companies that have been curated and vetted by someone who's put in some work organizing these deals, right? So like for s just for our one event a month, uh we get about 500 applications and we feature six companies, right? Uh so it's it's like a 1% selection rate. Um there's a lot of like um uh selection that goes into that and so that's work, right? And investors get to benefit from that. Whether you attend a Techstars event or 500 or Draper event or Zugler event, you benefit from that. Uh I think the outside breaking in uh part that you raised is interesting because um what happens when an outsider company comes usually is there's no traction at all and then there's one investor who's like the mainstream investor who says yes and then it suddenly becomes a hot round, right? I think what s does is essentially like converts you know outsider company dealing into a hot deal. Uh this is what I've noticed you know as using s is like suddenly an NN company suddenly gets traction in terms of like from investor interest. Uh I don't know if that was your idea of solving it, um but um this is something I've observed using s is suddenly there's a company which no one knew, no one knows the founder, there's no you know uh background or you know the traditional signals that we look at and there's no name investor in pre-ed or anything but um and this is also like an international scale right? A lot of s companies are uh not just based out of US but they're based everywhere. Uh so that has been my observation. I'm not sure uh if that that is sort of the goal for s for you guys. Yeah, that that is sort of the end result of the process, right? That's uh that's uh again and it's not always guaranteed to happen, but it tends to happen as a result of what we do, which is you know a good way to think about it is um this is this is this is the fastest way to get enough investors to fill up a million, couple million dollars in with a five minute pitch on the planet. There is no faster way to do this, right? So and and investors are often driven by like the round allocation is running out, who else is in the round, who who are, you know, who are the other who's the lead, who's who else is putting in money? Okay, I want to be the last check in because then the round is derisk, etc etc, right? So a lot of those dynamics you solve by doing this by putting a lot of investors, a few hundred of them in in in a room. and as a founder when you pitch to them and this is true of like any demo day, you're basically having 500 first meetings at once, right? And and typically let's say there's 20 people out of those 500 that really are interested in what you're doing, so there's suddenly you've got you've you've cleared that hurdle and now you have 20 second meetings coming up on your Caly. and you know, guess what, maybe 10 of them have even put in a check already. So you can also live commit. So typically smaller uh investors like a 1000 to $25,000 Angels, right will can actually commit and sign documents on s live as well without needing a meeting. And typically the larger funds, you know 100k to like a couple million will will take a second or third meeting before before saying yes. So both those tracks are open and what it does is it creates momentum, right? Momentum in a round as you know is everything. If you don't have momentum, you're dead. And and that's why the smart companies and the folks who really fund raise really, really well, you know, do a lot of prep work going into a fund raise and then they do a timed fund raise for like a week or two weeks, no longer than two weeks, it's got to be do or die, sink or swim in two weeks. You never want to leave a round open for months and months because that just is like lack of momentum, right? It's the air escaping from a balloon. balloon's not going to fly, you know it's it's going back down. So what s does is it pumps an enormous amount of air into that balloon in five minutes. that's a great way of putting it. Uh talk to me a little bit about what happens post um you know a s day demo for a startup, right? Because you see obviously those comments live. How much of that converts uh is it a 100% conversion rate behind the scenes? Because I haven't particularly actually invested in through s, but uh I'm curious because there's a lot of you know over commitment uh for most teams almost. Uh and what do you see behind the scenes if you can share. Yeah, of course. Um so everything, everything that you see on s is real, right? Whether it's they fall into two buckets. One is like a a commitment like here's a hard commitment, I'm going to sign documents, I'm like ready to go. Those are typically smaller tracks, one to 25,000, sometimes 50,000 but 1 to 25 is that is that typical range, right? Um um and and the other bucket is I am a large check writer, typically institution uh or a syndicate uh and I anywhere from six figures to low seven figures and I I would like a second meeting or third meeting um before I can decide. Um those are the two buckets and uh uh so everything that comes up on s results in like a meeting or like a serious intent to invest. Right? Having said that, of course not everything is going to convert, right? We know from fundraising, even what the warmest of introductions like don't always convert, right? So intros uh I think obviously convert less than hard commits, right? There is some drop off in both. I think with hard commits most of them go through. Um the majority of them like go through close and wire. Intros, I think something like 10% will actually go through. But when they go through it's like a million dollar check. So for founders it's still like very very worthwhile to take those meetings. It's also because like you're also tapping into like the nonYC market because like YC has a schedule and most of the accelerators have schedule that you know it fits into a quarterly or a six months cycle and you know a startup might not fit into that cycle per se. Um so I think s.com will sort of is instantaneous, right? You get if you get picked uh and you're fundraising like you you just go there and you don't have to spend three months and now that everything is remote, I don't know how much of the accelerator value is still there because previously like an Indian company coming to US and spending time here, maybe you got to learn and interact with people. Uh I guess you're getting the it still, but um I don't know I want to what's your view on you know how remote change the accelerators because you see a lot of accelerators now uh being part of s, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean that's our primary customer, right? our our our primary customers actually the accelerator or or uh you know, in some cases the VC funds who are organizing these events. Um, the investors and founders are almost sort of like they're part of the event and that's why, you know, we have to build for them. Uh but our primary customer is like the event organizer. They're the catalyst who who hosts an event and they bring all of the parties together. Um, uh and and you're right, you know, with s now startups can go through a demo day format at their own pace and timing. They don't have to wait for like the end of the cohort. And also without giving up equity, right? So like a lot of the value, I think accelerators actually do provide a lot of value in um bringing out of network folks into the network, right? There's that bridge, you meet people, you build friendships, you have your own little cohort and you go through like this new world together, right? There's a lot of value in that. I don't think that will go away as covid is ending. Um, you know, folks that have residential programs, in person programs, I think are are going to see a big resurgence this year. But um, you know the the the great thing about demo days also is like a big that's raising capital is a big part of the value prop for an accelerator, right? They're going to make you worthy to capital ready uh by helping you with your pitch, your your business, uh some coaching, some mentoring, some contacts, networking, but also give you access to like hundreds of investors at the end of the process. And for that they take equity usually, right? Or they ask to invest at very attractive terms. Um, uh you know that YC pioneered. Um, and so s doesn't, you don't give up equity to do that, right? Uh if if you're pitching at a s event. Um, we the month of Feb, this month uh we have 12 12 demo days in one month on the platform, right? And none of them are s events. All 12 are like partner events. So there's Techstars, 500, Draper and others. Uh you know, launch house has this fun event coming up next week where where VCs are going to pitch founders. Like, hey please take my money. You know my money is better than that person's money. So this is going to be hilarious. We'll see what happens, you know it's it's kind of like a meet the fund uh type of event. Um, so uh the there's a lot of choice for founders, you know they can pick and choose. Look at our calendar and say okay, I would like, I like these four organizations and I will apply to go through their event. Um, so it it it also creates inbound for for our partners both on the founder side and on the LP investor side. Also it's great for, you know all the solo GPs and micro funds as well, right? Because you do a certain due diligence and filter out and pick one and maybe you know 20 or 30 companies and you can technically operate a fund uh just through these open, you know platforms and you know s being one of them. you can just operate a maybe a small micro fund. You don't have to have any back office literally. you just deploy funds. You know at s and you know other demo days and that could be a small fund and theoretically there is a possibility or you can make a case that these are all out of the network deals. So the and you always, you know the saying is that all the returns are on the, you know outside where you don't see. So if if that is true then you can really make a case that hey you should have a fund which is just you know investing in s.com or all these open platforms where you know your deal cost is almost close to zero uh and you don't need any back office and there's a certain level of due diligence uh the platforms are making and then you can add a layer of due diligence or maybe connect with the founders and you can almost come up with a you know new fund just focused on this outside the network strategy. Um Uh so one of the things I also wanted to ask you about because you were sort of the early movers into the uh live streaming uh corner business. Uh why do you think live streaming has not penetrated into e-commerce uh in the US or in in US markets primarily. You know that's a great question. Um I some startups are starting to do it, right? There's Pop Shop Live. There's another one that I think just raised like at a few hundred million valuation. what's the name here? What what not? What not yeah. Um it's huge in China and Asia as you know. Um I think it's starting to catch on in India. But I think you know live streaming is a format that uh is very good at going deep, it's not good at going wide. Um so if if you want to build deep trust with a small group of people who have high purchase intent and are ready to spend significant, it's it's a perfect format. It's not good at going wide because you have to spend a lot of time sink in you know synchronously while the channel is live, your schedule has to align for like that to happen versus like a short YouTube video or TikTok video. You consume sync whenever you want at your convenience it's 30 seconds. So live streaming is good for going deep and creating high purchase intent, not good for going wide. Um, I think it's starting to happen in in shopping and e-commerce like Amazon has um, you know a live section on their site that's growing really well. they started by doing it in a really cringe way which was like companies kind of like doing a live stream QVC style that was like totally cringe, unwatchable, unwatchable. Uh but now they've realized okay that's the wrong model. you want to get influencers or personalities or people actually people want to watch, you know that they trust that this person's not just going to shill me whatever they're told to shill me. This person is going to like curate and like tell me what they actually like, you know and and then that's what I should buy. So that model is working much better. It's live on amazon.com. you can go and you know it's it's um it's grown a lot in the last sort of couple years I've been following just that. Um so we're applying that to investing, right? s is Twitch meets Angel list meets Shark Tank. Like some magic of those those things put together. And uh ultimately I I really care about it, you know, there's there's a couple of really interesting studies uh there's one from Cambridge Associates that said uh sorry about the baby in the background. Um, which was uh, you know venture capital has has outperformed the S&P if you look at it over a 30, 40 year time horizon, right? If you look at it that long it's it's actually been a really great asset class. Um, and the other one uh was um, you know, looking at market capitalization of public companies and how many of them were technology startups. You know, a huge chunk of the market, something like 40% is is like companies that were venture funded and once were startups. Um, and but they only received like less than 1% of the funding that went to the market, right? So like that ratio is just insane. Like and so it really goes to show like this is a great asset class. It just needs to be made more approachable and accessible. And we talk about it because we're in in the, you know, in the in the circle, but the rest of the country, the rest of the world generally has no idea what this is, how to get into it. And so using video is is an amazing way of making it approachable, right? Because there's people, there's personalities, you you hear from them and and uh people are always a great way to make anything approachable, right? You you put someone's face in there, it's live, you can talk to them, ask them questions, see what questions everyone else is asking them and you learn. I have a bunch of friends, you know a PM who works at Google, she joins all s events just to learn. Um, you know, watching other founders pitch because someday she might want to do her own startup. So it's a it's a it makes the format very accessible. So so what we really want to do is you know get started, get this asset class to a point where it literally becomes a core portfolio allocation for every investor. Um, you know, this shouldn't be something that you allocate 5% of your portfolio and only the top 10% of people do it. Um, this should be something that like everyone in the world should be able to allocate like 30% of their entire portfolio, right? Like what are the big buckets? You have public equities, you have maybe precious metals, real estate, maybe some crypto, like startup investing should be like real estate or public equities in your portfolio waited. Um, because that's good for you, you know that that as an investor that'll get you great returns. Um, and it's very fulfilling. It's way more fulfilling than uh investing in equities or real estate at least for me, right? You get to like support someone early with their story, you back them, they're so grateful and happy when the thing works and you were like one of the early backers. Yeah, I completely agree with the fulfillment part. Also there are always two types of people who look at this asset class and come up with two different conclusions, right? The outsider's conclusion is it's the most riskiest asset class and the insider's conclusion is it's actually the most, you know the best long term investing that you can do, right? Uh and they don't look at it as you know highly risky. And like I've had people who've done you know more than 200 plus Angel investments on the podcast and and still continuing to invest and obviously you also have done 100 plus. Um, and people who do it that scale often tell me is uh it's actually not the riskiest um in terms of if you look at all the asset classes and what what is your take on, you know assessing risk in this asset class and what do outsiders miss and what do insiders um, you know get. Um, I think I think there's there's like some basic principles that um, you know some people you can learn by trial and error or by like reading like following people like Paul Graham and like some of the folks who've been doing this, Mike Maples and you know, obviously A16Z puts out great content on this stuff, right? So um I I would think about it as sort of portfolio allocation, right? And say okay, how much do I want to how much am I going to invest net new in the market this year, next year, three, five years. what's my annual sort of allocate like how much of that am I putting into startups? So break that down into like a monthly or quarterly budget, right? So if you want to put $50,000 uh you know into startups over the year like break that down, you know, you know, let's say that's 12 12,500 a quarter and then break that down into small checks, right? So diversify, um don't put all your eggs in one or three or five baskets if you want to be doing this long term. Um, uh you know I don't know who said this but somebody said, you know was it Naval or Jason Kacanis. you know if you can't do 50 in Angel investments don't do any. Uh just because there's such a high failure rate uh and you're not going to know years in, you know what worked what didn't, right? So, um uh so diversify, large basket um, and dollar average sort of your way in, right? A lot of people who've gone through liquidity events, I was guilty of this a little bit as well. sort of since learn my lesson is they will just get way too excited and over invest into everything at the beginning, right? Um, uh that leads to poorer deal quality versus like being patient and more like here's I'm going to do one deal a month or I'm going to do one deal a quarter or whatever your pace is for your budget, right? Um, that will lead that that's some discipline that will give you better deal quality versus trying like, hey I just have some money, I'm going to do 10 deals this month, right? or 10 deals this quarter. Um, platforms like Angel list and s also make it really easy to do $1,000 checks as low as a thousand into a wide variety of deals while you're learning. it's a great way to start learning before you build up your check sizes to 5, 10, 25k or or more as an Angel. Um, so that's that's also like sort of highly recommended um for for people new and getting into it. I think there's also a big gap of knowledge. uh I think partly it comes because of the accreditation rules probably that no one talks about it and the data is not and the data is only with the people who have experience. I think the data uh as probably Angel list publishes a good amount of research in the last couple of years, but otherwise there's hardly any data because most of the investors are just individuals who are not publishing data. It's not compiled in a way that people can look at, you know what deals work, what deals didn't work, what are the signals and like what stages to enter, etc. So I feel like that's some of the gaps and I think Angel list did a good job in the last couple of years putting out a lot more content in terms of like what it takes to find deals and I think they propose the strategy as well of, you know, don't look at uh and just invest in all the seed deals. I think they came out with um that conclusion that you you can't really find or pick a uh a good team. you just have to invest in you know as many seed deals and you'll get an exit. Um, which is the index approach, right? That's the access fund, which I I I actually I've been a big I love that report. I've tweeted about it. I uh I spoke to the guy who wrote it. Uh and he explained me sort of the the method the data behind it. Uh Parker and uh completely agree, you know in in we we uh are trying to do that at s as well for for like the demo day deal pipeline, right? So we have a no fee no carry uh best of s fund uh which is a micro fund and and it's the easiest way to like sort of put a few hundred dollars into like tons and tons of deals and sort of see long-term returns. Uh but I think indexing uh or like very wide diversification is probably the easiest way to get a very high return and sleep easy at night. Yeah. Um so you talked about, you know obviously Angel list Angel investing is more fulfilling than other types of investing for obvious reasons. But can you share a couple of, you know um stories that you were part of as an Angel investor that I mean they're not not necessarily big exits, but you know was was a fun ride. Uh yeah, yeah let me see what what are my uh fun stories. So these I mean what's top of mind? Um, you know invested in a company called Give panel. Uh uh uh first money and um and uh they they're going through a seed ground right now. And uh uh you know, super interesting sort of undiscovered gem type of out of network company, uh which is what I really like. Um uh personally because it's it's more fulfilling. You know, um, so it was great worked with the founder sort of strategy, coaching, but also connections and now helping him fund raise by sort of connecting him to lot of folks in the valley or, you know the ecosystem here. Um, valley is obviously very, you know dispersed now. It's not a place, it's a state of mind. or it's a set of Twitter accounts. Uh, so that was that was really fulfilling, you know this guy was like, you know, he lives in rural England and uh uh great entrepreneur but sort of first time he's doing a startup, scaling it, uh few million in air, like has a business, like has a real business. Nobody knows about it. They've like given out, they've generated, you know over 250 million for charities. And nobody knows about him. Like I'm just like, oh my god, if this was like a Silicon Valley company, like this everybody would be talking about it, right? So it's very fulfilling to like find and support these people, give them cash when they need it. um, and then help them in their journey. Hopefully, you know, they get more fairly valued uh as they as they as they mature and the company grows. Um, um, you know, uh it's it's also been fun uh you know investing in um people I've worked with, right? So like some Streamlabs folks that have left and started companies. It's been it's been fun supporting them with dollars as well. And then uh you know, through s we've we've done a lot of um uh out of network international deals as well. lot of folks in in you know not necessarily the most well connected, but they have solid businesses and like sometimes shocking, shockingly so like ridiculous amounts of traction. Um, and uh uh you know they're just looking for better access to capital markets, more fluid access to capital markets, which you know, this shouldn't fundraising shouldn't be a game based on who you know. It should really be based on you know, uh your your traction, your strength as a business, um, you know your background as a founder, founder market fit, product market fit, you know how much your customers love you, sort of growth rate, future prospects. That sort of stuff. Uh Um, not to say that there isn't a lot of value in high quality signal from investors and who else is investing and how hot the deal is. But those are mental shortcuts, right? And you and I know like as investors we're we just don't have the time to diligence that many deals. And so we use shortcuts, mental shortcuts to save time and energy and like who else is in the deal? You know, how many other people have kind of looked at it and it's passed their filter, their judgment and so we trust that and that becomes a mental shortcut and we over index on it a little too much, right? And so unlearning that a little bit is valuable um at finding finding great deals as well. Yeah, I mean evolutionary wise it works in most cases, right? Because it helps us making fast decisions. Uh like this happens all the time when we look at Indian deals and there's a big stigma that we only look at IIT or like top colleges like I mean the same bias exists in the US as well. Um, but the reason people do that is you can, you know eliminate certain risks, okay, these guys know what they're doing at least engineering wise. Maybe the business side, you know they learn by doing it. So there are certain signals obviously helpful, but again, if you are actually a serious investor, you have to like move away from that you know mindset and look at each deal on its face value. Um, but other interesting thing um, you know I found while you know researching for this conversation was what you did with poor founders, again a great name. Um, but uh you essentially did secondary transactions into a bunch of companies that you liked, right? That that's the short story of it. Um, talk talk to me a little bit about what the strategy and why those companies, uh etc and what was the motivation behind doing that. Uh yeah so poor founders, you know I do a lot of my investing with with my brother and my co-founder from my last two startups. we've been doing a lot of startups together investing together. Uh and so a couple of years ago there was sort of uh uh you know the market the valuation it's hard to hard to imagine a time when the public markets were more richly valued than the private markets, but that was the case two years ago. two three years ago. And um, you know, so we saw we saw and now it's almost the opposite, right? Uh uh but we saw an opportunity at that time to kind of um buy secondaries in like growth stage or late stage or pre IPO uh companies we really liked um uh as a path to going public, right? So like uh Airbnb was, you know, we did Airbnb pre IPO. Um, uh and and you know a few others. Um, and and that's why we set up poor founders from an investment perspective. Uh but also I think this part of the market is actually highly underserved, but you have to be a little careful how you do it. Founders, particularly first time founders, which is the majority, um, don't have a lot of liquidity, right? They're they're rich on paper uh poor IRL and uh all of their net worth is like they're more all in than like anything, like they're all in and all like all in squared, right? Uh not only are they risking everything their their time, their energy, their health, their everything sort of sacrifice for the startup. Their entire net worth is in the startup as well, right? So so giving them a little bit more liquidity through a secondary transaction is actually a good thing and it uh destresses them and sets them up for like a little bit more of a marathon. Um, the way we did it was, you know, you don't want to take like huge chunks like of of the equity, but taking like single digit percentage points is probably low enough where you're not creating adverse incentives. Uh and you know the founders still have enough skin in the game, but they get to destress a little bit. Also usually secondary transactions are a little bit complicated, right? It requires a little bit more specific knowledge then I mean we don't have that many avenues to do some sort of if you know the company that you want to pick. It's usually harder to get into a secondary transaction. there are obviously right of first refusal rights and all those complications that come into the picture. Um, was it were you guys able to get to all companies that you wanted or you know because of there's so many complication moving parts when it comes to a secondary transaction. even platforms which are quote unquote, you know enabling these transactions are often failed because uh I remember looking at uh the Robin Hood secondary deal four or five years back. And every time it comes up on the platform it fails because you know Robin Hood declines because they have the first rate of refusal, right? Um talk to me about the complications that you had to face or or was it all smooth sailing? No, it's it's very, very complicated, very annoying, tons and tons of paperwork. Thankfully my brother Murthy did did did most of it. But some of the approach, you know, um Forge Global is sort of a great broker and a platform. Um they're about to go public I think through a spack. Um so I got to go read their read their documents. Um might be a good business to buy. But they've they've done this better than anyone else in the space I think. Um, but you know there's others there's like equity B, equity Zen or whatever, Shares Post, there's um Carta with Carta X and Angel list has a new secondary product coming out called transfers uh at transfers.angellist.com. So this is a bunch of activity starting to happen, but Forge has has has been uh you know in my view sort of uh the most interesting and sort of easiest to work with and um actually has most of what you want. Each company is different. There's a uh uh we did not get most of what we wanted. Um, and each company sort of operates on different sort of cycles. Sometimes it's like a quarterly cycle. There's rafters, there's um and sometimes you know you just there's you can't transfer the shares, there's restrictions on. Um, and so uh sometimes you're able to buy the shares outright. Sometimes they go through like an SPV, sometimes you're buying from like a fund and it goes through like complicated SPV. If there's you know restrictions on transfer but the company's pre IPO, you know in