Transcript: First Check Ventures: Ali Jamal on Angel Investing

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Host: Hey Ellie, welcome to the show.

Guest: Thanks, really great to be here.

Host: Uh so, I thought one of the interesting places to start the conversation would be, you know, to talk about you were living in Mexico before moving to Puerto Rico. So, I want to talk about how did you end up or because you're originally from US, right? How did you end up and what was the trajectory that led to, you know, start living in Mexico?

Guest: Yeah, for the last few years, living in different emerging markets. But, uh, originally from the US. I grew up in the Midwest and then did my undergrad and my Masters at Stanford, undergrad in economics, and then a Masters in statistics.

I started my career in finance doing mergers and acquisitions, uh, in New York, focused mainly on, you know, uh, tech and and the tech industry.

And was seeing all these cool tech companies and wanted a chance to help them out more and decided the best way to do that would be to actually go work for one.

So, after three years of banking, I moved to Silicon Valley and started working as a data scientist. Finally getting to use those stats skills I'd studied all those nights for it. And I spent the next three years working as a data scientist.

Uh, it was a really interesting experience and getting a chance to really get my hands dirty, uh, and the ins and outs of of a company and thinking about analytics. But I still felt like I wanted to do something more.

And so in 2013, I made the jump into working in product and growth roles for mobile app companies. And I've kind of been there ever since. I was at Zinga, the mobile gaming company, as a growth product manager there.

And then went to a competitor of theirs called Rockyou. I was at Rockyou for about four years and uh, helped build them from 40 people up to 400.

And then in 2017, I got recruited by a company called Agoda, which is, uh, Asia's largest online travel agency. And so I ended up moving to Bangkok, Thailand to lead marketing innovation for them.

Uh, ended up taking over their mobile growth and their display marketing teams. And then focusing a lot on China and helping them expand out their presence across greater China.

I did that for a couple of years and I saw the rise of the super app across Asia. And I was really excited by that idea, the fact that you could have it all-in-one app and how many different ways you could touch and have an impact on people's lives.

And I looked around the world and I saw that there was a company in Latin America that was doing something similar called Rappi. And so I reached out to the executive team at Rappi and said, I really like what you guys are doing.

Would love to come and learn more. And, you know, uh, a few weeks later I was on a plane ride over there. Ended up moving to Bogota and leading their performance marketing team.

Uh, a few days later, you know, uh, SoftBank came in with a billion dollars and, uh, I basically my job was to try to figure out how do we spend this money expanding our market presence as efficiently as possible.

I had a team of about 80 across Lam doing acquisition and retention marketing. And then end of 2019, I got recruited by a startup in Mexico called Payclip.

Payclip, uh, is a Fintech that is helps with payments, uh, for small and medium-sized businesses. And I ended up leading their growth and performance marketing teams. And then on the side, I've been an angel investor for quite a while.

The pandemic hit right after I moved to Mexico and I didn't really have any friends or anything else to do. Just stuck inside. And so I just decided, you know, I've since I've already been angel investing, why don't we try making our own syndicate?

And so I ended up launching FirstCheck Ventures in July of of 2020 and have kind of just been growing that ever since.

We ended up doing more than 60 investments in 2021 and it it was just taking up such a large portion of my time and of my efforts that I wanted to really focus on it full-time.

And so I have now kind of moved to Puerto Rico and I'm just working on making FirstCheck Ventures and the portfolio companies as strong as possible.

Host: Uh, I mean, you've touched up on so many things I wanted to cover in this conversation, but, uh, I want to take a step back and talk about, you know, your first exposure to angel investing as an individual. Like what was that journey and when it, uh, started?

Guest: So, I think I was an angel investor before there was actually the term angel investor.

Um, you know, basically I went to Stanford and then started my careers as an investment banker, but I had a lot of friends that were doing, you know, computer science and engineering and been part of the startup world and even when I was a student, I kind of wanted to be part of the startup world, but instead I got tricked into being an investment banker, right?

And that's the thing you were supposed to do at that time and the path you were supposed to be on. And I had friends that were following their dreams and I was stuck, you know, working till 2:00 a.m. every day, hating my life.

And whenever I'd hear about one of my friends that was starting his own startup, I would be like, hey, can I help you out? Let me, let me give you a small investment, right?

And so, you know, started out just kind of very basic with with that sort of stuff.

And then as, you know, my exposure to tech grew and as I started, you know, taking on these different roles and having more experience on the data side, on the product side, on the growth side, I started being able to have a more of an impact outside of just cash to a lot of these companies and started, you know, advising some and then investing in some.

And then, you know, with kind of the evolution of angel and angel and syndicates, started putting more and more of my own resources into it. And then, I think it all kind of really came together once I left the US.

Um, you know, being in Asia, you just saw a whole slew of new startups. Um, and you know, kind of really opened my eyes to everything that was kind of possible and how different life had been uh or was becoming because of startups.

So I'd actually visited Thailand in 2012. Um, and then when I came back to actually live there, it felt like a completely different experience because of apps.

Apps had had this dramatic impact where, you know, you could now do some of your banking efforts online. You could now pull up Google Maps and no longer get lost in the marketplace.

You could now, you know, use Uber or Grab and get around and not have to try to deal with a taxi driver taking you to the wrong place.

You could now, um, use food delivery services and you could know exactly what you're ordering without having to point and gesture and guess, right?

Like just all these different things you could do, you could use automatic translation services so you could write instructions in Thai even though you don't know Thai, right? And in Thai is a completely different language script.

So, you know, I just saw how dramatic life was changing and I knew I wanted to be a part of it more and more and more.

And then more and more people were reaching out because I was taking on more leadership positions and I just started investing more and then it kind of just one thing led to another, led to another and all of a sudden now it's like my full-time 24/7 job.

Host: One of the things that, you know, as an angel investor myself, I observe is there's not much data in terms of individual investment outcomes.

Uh, how has your own portfolio, you know, like what are the learnings you have seen or the in terms of outcomes?

Um, you know, we always keep talking about it's a power law, you know, a few significant outcomes change your portfolio and you have to have those in your portfolio to actually, you know, create a meaningful exit out of, uh, being an angel investor.

And one of the harder part parts is like all the successful angel investors I have talked to, their data of about their portfolio is not out there. Probably like AngelList's own data at as the best data on this.

Um, but other than, you know, VC funds who have been operational for, you know, a couple of decades, uh, no new individual really has the access to that data.

So what has your experience in terms of you know, looking at your own portfolio, uh, has been?

Guest: So, you know, I I do see power law has had a dramatic impact, um, on my portfolio and, you know, there are individual investments which have the potential to return, you know, your whole portfolio multiple top mult your whole investment, right?

Multiple times over. Um, you know, I think part of it depends on how you think about portfolio theory and how you you try to organize that, right?

Because as an angel investor, you don't have all the same restrictions that a VC firm does and not all the same privileges, right?

Like we don't always have Pro Rata, we don't always have as much insight into what's happening or the board meetings or or some of those sort of things.

Um, but, you know, you can, you know, whereas traditionally most VCs are maybe making 10 to 20 investments out of their fund, you don't have to limit yourself to 10 or 20 investments.

You know, you could take a more shots on goal and get more uh, more exposure to different things. Um, you can do more geographically, right? So historically, VCs are only looking at in specific Geos or not looking at all Geos equally.

You know, you can, you know, and people are much more specialized, but as an angel, you have the option to be much more diversified. Um,

Host: Which is partly because, you know, the structure that you're using, right? Because you're using angel syndicate and you're not, you know, tied up with a certain amount of capital and the demand is sort of distributed everywhere. All those factors essentially, you know, coming to picture.

Guest: Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, I think the other thing that that's interesting about this is we're at a very interesting point, I think in terms of venture and in terms of investing. And when you look at it, right?

Like 2021 was for Lam, for example, was like the cumulative of the last five years was invested in one year, right? Like it's five times bigger than than any other year before that.

Uh, and you're seeing that in Pakistan, you're seeing that in Bangladesh, you're seeing that in a lot of other markets, you know, that that we're having outstanding years. And so we're having outstanding markups, right?

And and even, you know, even within a year, two years, three years, you know, we're seeing these these really high outstanding markets. So I don't even know how to benchmark compared to other portfolios, right?

Like if most people, you know, have their portfolio going up 20% in the first year and then 20% in the second year and then 60% in the third year, I think most people saw their 2021 portfolio or their 2020 portfolio go up two or three times faster, two or three times larger than what they would have expected.

Um, there's a lot of money coming in. Series A's are getting bigger and bigger, right? Spacks are happening. There's all these different dynamics that are making it really hard to predict.

And when I compare like the investments that I'm making now versus the ones that, you know, have exited, like there just I just have so much more knowledge and we're living in like a completely different world than, you know, if you're looking at an exit, it's from things that you did in 2012 or 2013, right?

Which is a completely different world than the world that we're living in now, right? Um, so it's really hard to have like consistent data or or or real data about how any things are going to happen.

You know, we're living in in a uh rapidly changing world and I even wonder if, you know, data from 2021 is going to be relevant in 2022, right? We we're seeing uh, you know, changes to things like YC and how they're doing, you know, their investments.

We're seeing bigger and bigger seed rounds, bigger and bigger pre-seed rounds, series A's that are at a unicorn status, right? Like like just the whole dynamic has dramatically shifted.

Um, so, yeah, my portfolio looks good to me, but I don't know how it compares to everybody else or what, you know, what good is is is a really weird thing to discuss these days because uh numbers are crazy.

And when you actually look at the numbers and how quickly something can grow, um, especially in, you know, early stages, it's uh, it's mind-boggling, right?

Like you could have a a 100% IRR, 300% IRR, um, you know, in 2021 and you know, it doesn't seem it doesn't seem crazy, uh, right? For for last for last year. So I don't think we're going to see 300% IRRs continue.

Um, and I I think, you know, I think it's kind of across Angeles that and across a lot of these things that people are just seeing really crazy high uh, high returns and great results and, you know, it's going to take a correction in order to know who's actually good at this and who's just able to, you know, follow the height.

Host: Yeah, I think, you know, post uh pandemic, I think, you know, I think something opposite happened, right? I mean, if you think about, you know, it might, I mean everyone thought everything will slow down, right?

That was the, you know, obvious uh reaction. And then just like the public markets, the private markets, you know, just really went crazy.

And yeah, you're right in terms of like everything is crazy and I think these valuations also sort of are pushing the failures further down, right?

Because the feedback cycle of whether a startup will fail or not is now extended because there's just more capital in the system.

Guest: There's also been like game changing technologies happening, right? Like, uh, crypto, Web3, uh, blockchain, you know, makes everything completely different, I think, right?

Like like I don't think five years ago we had that same sort of shift in how things were happening or or how big things were getting, you know, and now with with with with the markets, it's just, you know, dramatic uh, dramatic impacts across the court.

Host: Yeah, I think there are some secular, you know, trends that changed, right? I mean remote is a big one.

Uh, the fact that, I mean, remote existed, but I think the widespread adoption that we could do most of the stuff we did in person could be done remote is a big, big change that we sort of underestimate and we see that even with our funding cycles.

And that sort of collaboration changed a lot of things in terms of how fast you can create a company and how fast you can raise. So how fast you can innovate has changed.

So there is a definite secular effect of why there is more capital and more returns.

But at the same time, you know, there are negatives of, you know, lack of due diligence and, you know, having just more capital and the usual feedback system of, you know, you raise around, wait for an year and see how the metrics are performing and then, you know, you would go and raise another round.

So that gave a good feedback cycle for even investors to judge a company. And with more capital, you know, companies are raising within six months, within eight months, you know, which sort of, you know, affects that process itself.

But obviously the super successful ones will not be affected by it, but we have to see how the portfolios itself will affect. Um, something you've touched upon is, you know, the YC changing it, YC, you know, changing its terms.

Uh, what's your take on that? Because often as a syndicate investor or whoever is running a syndicate, um, is trying to get allocations from a bigger round, right?

And YC's terms effectively are saying that once we do our regular, you know, demo day round, um, there's additional 350k at their disposal, right?

If let's say the next round is a $2 million dollar round, the 350k is essentially allocated to YC and syndicates are often trying to get allocations of about, you know, 100k to 250k depending upon uh your thesis and your, you know, your LP base and everything else.

Um, how do you think that affects just the syndicate leads?

Guest: I think it depends on, um, you know, what your strategy is. So, you know, my plan has been or to find companies very early and to be, you know, literally the first check-in.

So I still have seven or eight portfolio companies that are going to be going through this batch already. Um, I've been playing less of the in batch, um, game, uh, of, you know, trying to get in some discount before demo date type stuff.

Um, and that's really what this is going to kill, right? Like it doesn't make sense for the companies to take money before demo date.

Um, and we were already kind of seeing that anyways with the last few batches is that the best companies weren't playing, playing those games as much.

Um, and, you know, I think it's also just highlighting that, you know, YC felt like it was leaving money on the table and opportunity on the table.

Um, they have the resources to, you know, invest more and so this is just a continuation of that and and a way for them to continue to support their portfolio companies.

Uh, you know, I think the three, the extra 375 isn't really going to make an impact for the the largest companies in YC that are going to be raising the $10 or $20 million dollar rounds.

And, you know, I think what this is actually probably going to be a good sign for is those companies that were, you know, just starting out at the beginning of YC, you know, really kind of becoming an accelerator again.

Um, because there was so much pressure, I think over the last few batches to be one of those stars and to have great metrics and, you know, I there's companies that, you know, created during YC or launched during YC, right?

And so how can you compare that to a company that's been around for four years?

Um, and and so the fact that now they're giving people more Broadway, you know, give people more time to figure things out and hopefully it means that we just have a stronger overall ecosystem at the end of the day.

Um, and and these companies that were a little bit earlier or maybe not as, you know, hadn't found product market fit quite yet, it'll give them additional resources so they can find.

Host: Perfect, it's great for YC, right? In terms of, you know, uh protecting their equity in the company over a long term and sort of maximize these. I think last year we had about 10 IPOs or more than 10 IPOs.

And it gives them a good opportunity to maximize their equity and outcomes, uh, I think.

Yeah, so I think, uh, it it's great for them to have, you know, that clause in there and they have enough brand and sort of global attraction that they can do that, right?

Uh, I'm sure a lot of people will not like it because obviously there's some uh, investors who are depending upon, you know, getting 100k allocations, but then, you know, it's a free marketplace, build a better brand to attract uh, you know, to make yourself attractive.

Um, so I want to go back to, you know, your start of, uh, the syndicate, right? Uh, what was your strategy in terms of launching the syndicate? Because one of the hardest things to do right now on AngelList is, you know, to create a syndicate.

Um, and grow it because there's so much competition for deal flow, so much competition for LPs, so much, you know, capital and there's so many places you could invest your capital.

So getting that attention is hard, getting uh companies uh without an LP base is harder because uh you don't know whether you can fail the deal or not.

Um, so what was your thinking when you're starting at first, you know, starting the first check syndicate?

Guest: So, you know, I I think it is hard if you don't have good deals, but good deals tend to get filled no matter the size of the syndicate from what I'm seeing. Um, you know, my thought and my strategy was let's focus on getting the LPs first.

And so where because what I see right now is many syndicates start out with a deal when they have 20 LPs or 25 LPs. I waited. I waited till I had 300 LPs before I launched a deal.

Uh, you know, I sat there and I called people, called my friends, called friends of friends, called my friend's cousins, called my friend's nephews, called my own cousins and nephews, right? Like I just did a lot of outreach.

And you know, part of that was the pandemic and it was a good excuse to connect with people, but that was also part of my strategy and philosophy. So I gave everybody my phone number, I gave everybody my personal email address.

Um, most of the time I'm responding within probably 20 minutes, uh, if I'm awake. And uh, that was one of the things that I really wanted to do was to, um, offer, you know, more personal touch and and uh, have a real opportunity.

I think, um, you know, my style is a little bit different than other people's.

I see a lot of syndicate leads, um, where they think they know more than everybody else and they think they're smarter than everybody else and that uh, they're the only ones who know what a good startup looks like.

I'm going to tell you the exact opposite, right? Like, uh, I think I know what good startups are, but I have some incredible LPs in in in my syndicate. You know, we have founders who've raised millions of dollars. We have VCs from top-tier VCs.

We have people who hold incredibly high positions at different tech companies. People have had their companies bought or got public. Um, you know, you guys are smart enough to decide for yourself what a good deal is or or or not.

And, you know, rather than looking at myself as a VC or a fund manager, I look at it as I'm just presenting opportunities to people. These are things that I like out of everything that I've seen, these are the ones that I like the best.

I put in my own money into it. If you like it, you're more than welcome to come with me and invest with me and join me on this journey. And if you don't like it, no hard feelings, right? Hopefully we have something else in the future that you do like.

Um, so, you know, I I think that's a little bit unique and and uh, I don't think I'm I'm an expert in this and and I don't know if anybody anytime somebody starts thinking they're expert in it, you know, it gets to be a little bit scary for me.

You know, I think everybody has an anti- anti-portfolio, right? Things they missed out on. Um, you know, we can't all be geniuses and see everything from day one.

So, I think just admitting that and that, you know, that that, you know, but a good deal is going to get filled and if you're honest and up front with your LPs, I think they'll also be honest and up front with you, right?

And if they don't like your deal and they're not investing your deal, then that's their decision. You shouldn't be trying to force them or course them or trick them into it.

Host: What is your own personal thesis in terms for your, you know, what do you like, right?

I mean, there are different, you know, leads have different ideas of what they like and, you know, where do they want to invest and sort of, you know, your own thesis of even though you're not a fun, you know, traditional fund manager or you're not running a VC fund, but you're still, you know, you have your own world view, uh, which you're enforcing through, you know, bringing or investing in these companies, right?

So what is your um, sort of thesis or the sectors uh that you are looking out for.

Guest: So, I think it kind of comes through to the portfolio. But, um, you know, we're called FirstCheck Ventures. We were literally the first check in about 80% of the portfolio.

So I believe in coming in early. 95% of the founders were um, are people of color. are are non non-white. Um, Now, that's also partially because, you know, 70%, 75% of the companies are in, you know, markets outside of the US, right?

So, um, you tend to have more kind of natural um, diversity there. Um, you know, we have probably about 20% on have women, uh, women CEOs. Um, so, you know, I think that's something that's important to me.

Um, and uh, you know, wanting to find companies that we can help out, right? So I have a background in Fintech. I have a background in marketplaces. I have a background in mobile. Um, a lot of my friends do as well.

Like that's who I kind of view as the LPs or are, you know, my friends and a lot of the people that are kind of in early.

Um, and and so when you look at a lot of the portfolio, it kind of looks like companies that I think I might be able to help or I might be able to guide them on their growth, or guide them on their product, or have, you know, somebody else in the syndicate guide them or help them or mentor them.

Um, you know, I I think a lot of people want to talk about, you know, how cool their portfolio is, but, you know, what have you actually done for your portfolio, right?

Like I think the the best things that I hear and I hear from a lot of my portfolio companies, I'm the most value add investor they have on their cap table, right? That we're and not just me, right?

There there's hundreds, thousands, there's thousands of LPs right behind me.

And all of them, you know, are, maybe not all of them, most of them are willing to help, you know, most of them, you know, will read through the updates, find ways to make connections, find, you know, ways to be positive and and support these companies.

Um, and when you think about what we're trying to do, right? Like we're angels. In my mind, that's the real thing you're supposed to be doing, right? We're supposed to be coming in early.

We're supposed to be backing people that couldn't get, you know, traditional access to funding. We're supposed to be uh supporting these companies and helping them grow and helping them achieve the next level, right?

And we're that that's those are kind of the things that I I believe on and I believe that if we do those things, that's how we're going to get the best returns.

Host: What are the some ways you help your portfolio companies? Because, uh, uh, what is the value add that you try to bring? Like some something, uh, you know, a concrete example that you've done, uh, for a for a company.

Guest: Yeah, so, um, you know, it depends company to company. Different companies want different things. Um, often times, you know, they'll want introductions to potential leads.

So I can tap into my Rolodex and make kind of like the pure financial introductions. Um, sometimes they'll want introductions to other types of talent, more product managers, more designers, more engineers.

I could go again into my Rolodex or into my connections and, you know, on LinkedIn or on Twitter or whatever, try to tap in. Um, but I think most of my help is actually coming more on on kind of the advisory side of things.

Um, particularly with, you know, kind of growth performance marketing, product, um, data and analytics and just kind of having seen how things go and and and look at from zero to one and then also, you know, big. Uh, right?

So I I've now led growth at a couple of different unicorns in Lam. Um, you know, I've been at smaller startups before. I, you know, I have friends who've done a lot of different things. I talk to them about what their experiences have been like.

I just, you know, being able to share some of that knowledge with early-stage founders, I think could be really helpful. Um, so those are, you know, the ways that, you know, most of the help comes in.

But again, it could be really different company to company and really depends on the founders themselves.

Host: One of the things I've always felt is like, uh, you know, when a seed or pre-seed company that, you know, you invest through a syndicate and as a syndicate lead you have, you know, sizable investment into a early stage company and let's say you're also doing Pro Rata rounds through series A, series B, one of the things I always felt is that a good candidate to be an individual, you know, board member would be a syndicate lead.

But I haven't seen much uh of that happening. Have you seen any examples where um, or what your uh thoughts are just, you know, having the syndicate lead as a board member and have you seen that happen?

Guest: I've seen it happen a few times. I haven't been offered any board seats. I don't think it's something that happens all that often.

Um, what I see it is usually from the syndicates that act more like traditional VCs or that also have a fund in addition to the VC uh in addition to the syndicate.

Um, you know, I think it could be helpful. it depends on, you know, how you view the role of a syndicate or how you, you know, view the role of your syndicate lead.

Um, you know, having them spending time on the board and working with just one company, uh, you know, is probably great if you're one of the investors in that company, but if you're just a general LP or you didn't invest in that company, you'd probably want your syndicate lead to be out there finding new investments for you or new potential investments, right?

So there there's a bit of both, right? And I often wonder, right? Like what should what should your role be, right?

Like should my role be to go out and just try to find as many opportunities as possible or should it be to really support the investments we've already made and so far it actually hasn't been that much of a conflict, right?

Like I think the help that you offer can be impactful without having to be a huge resource uh drain.

And uh I also think that uh companies go through life cycles where they need you more and they need you less and so there's times where, you know, they come back and they need more help, but, you know, they need it for a couple of weeks and then they go off where they can execute.

And so, you know, one of the things that I'm noticing is that I never really have too many crises happening at the same time. Um, and so it's been much more manageable.

Host: One of the things I've noticed uh with syndicates are evolving is, you know, a successful syndicate uh lead usually evolves into, you know, becoming or starting a rolling fund, um, or, you know, uh also graduates to start their own, you know, micro fund.

Um, so what is your current plan since you've transitioned, you know, from being a part-time solo capitalist to now, you know, being a full-time uh sort of uh, you know, syndicate lead.

Are you planning to expand uh uh into rolling funds or, you know, starting a micro VC fund or uh what are what is your thought process just in terms of looking at your career?

Guest: So, you know, again, it kind of is a constantly evolving subject. Um, I I didn't have a plan of being a VC.

I I don't have a plan of being a VC and and and, you know, I don't know, I don't think I view VCs and syndicate leads as the same thing. Um, so I haven't really, you know, fully thought out what the next steps are.

I am really enjoying the several aspects of being a syndicate lead versus having a rolling fund or having a fund fund. Um, you know, the first thing is is that as a syndicate lead, I'm not deciding where people's money goes.

Everybody gets to decide for themselves, right? And it might sound weird like that I should want the responsibility of deciding everything, but I kind of like that I don't have it, right?

Like you only put your money and if you like the deal and if you don't like the deal, then then fine, right?

Um, you know, maybe it's just some trying to optimize to minimize the bullshit in my life versus trying to maximize, you know, the return I can have in life, but you know, at at some point, like having the least amount of bullshit is possible is actually like a really nice goal to have, right?

Um, I like the fact that with a syndicate, I can do whatever deal I like, right? And and I don't have to feel constrained about something because if enough other people like it, then they'll come in, right?

So, you know, the first deal I did was in a super app in Venezuela, right? Now, if I had a rolling fund, if I had a fund fund, I couldn't have done that deal, right?

Like it it wouldn't have fit the mandate, it would have raised too many questions, all those sorts of things, especially for your first investment, right?

But as a syndicate lead, I could offer it up and if other people were as excited as I was, they could invest. Um, so I think there's something really, really special about that.

Um, you know, so I haven't really fully thought out what the next steps are. But, uh, you know, I'm I'm really enjoying offering up deals, seeing what other people like, seeing how they think about things, right?

We get to have conversations about the deals, people reach out. You know, if I was just doing this by myself and just making decisions for everybody else, it would I don't know, I I don't think I would be enjoying it as much.

Host: I completely agree with that because I think it gives a amount of flexibility that a fund doesn't give you.

I think fund sort of uh, you know, sort of puts more pressure in terms of, you know, performing and, you know, again it becomes a I think it, you know, crosses the territory of uh, you know, you you want to do something that doesn't feel like work.

Um, right? Uh I think you're at a phase where I can understand that uh it doesn't feel like work, right? And once you start converting it into a rolling fund or actually a micro fund then your incentives sort of, you know, start feel like work again.

Um, I think I I can completely relate to the why you gave that answer and even I see uh the same thing with couple of other folks who I talk to even on the podcast who run successful syndicates is because they like the flexibility of, you know, having uh not not to answer anyone and you're only investing if you like the deal. otherwise, you know, you you have plenty of other

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